v1.3 Patch And Japanese ASW

[cdrsubron7]

Just wondering what you guys think of the Japanese ASW with the 1.3 patch installed? I've made 2 patrols sofar since the patch came out and I've been unable to get closer than 3400 yds when trying to approach a convoy at periscope depth with my sub at battlestaions and rigged for silent running and speed set at one knot. As soon as I here the pinging the merchants start zigging making it impossible to get a shot at them from 3000 yds. The one time I did manage to get my torpedos fired and then headed deep the Japanese DDs spread me all over the bottom of the Pacific within about five minutes.





cdrsubron7

[Jmack]

maybe you are doing it the wrong way ...

i usually get in front of the convoy and turn my tail or nose to them ( smalest reflection possible )

[BH]

Japanese ASW is completely lacks historical accuracy.

Wait until beery finishes the updated version of RFB.

[FAdmiral]

I tried the 1.3 just today with a test mission of mine. As I approached
within 6000, 2 DDs started straight for me. I dove to 300, went silent at
1/3 and zig-zaged my way towards the 3 targets. The DDs went by me and
started search patterns. I waited till I was fairly close to target 3, a battleship.
I came up to PD and give a look. It was doing the zig-zag dance but I closed with 900 and fired 4 fish. All hit and the BB went down fast. Within 2 min, 5 DDs
were all converging on me fast. I did my 300 thing again and headed for a
seaplane carrier. The DDs were good at blasting gaping holes in the sea but
none hit home. I managed to elude them and came up to PD for a shot at
the SC. Sent 2 fish her way at 750 but 1 was all that was needed. I went
deep again and hid under the lifeboats but since 1.3, they are not safe now.
The DDs came right into the middle of them and dropped DCs. All drops were
too shallow so I came out OK. Looks like a different ballgame with 1.3 guys....

JIM

[tater]

Toning the AI down too much would be a mistake, IMO. Remember that the stock campaign has 2 options, really good, and really crappy, yet there are actually 5 skill levels, even if the game rarely uses any but 1 and 3. On top of that, convoys are grossly overescorted.

If you read an overview book like Silent Victory it's pretty apparent that boats that made atatcks were usually attacked by escorts if there were any escorts with the target. The attacks were usually not fatal.

It's not that the IJN escorts had poor capability, it's that as a % of ships at sea, they have very few escorts, and poor doctrine for deploying them.

As an example, if you have 10 DDs that are every bit as capable as the best US escorts, you could use them very effectively to escort 1 or 2 convoys if your doctrine was to convoy ships. If your doctrine ws to take the 10 DDs, and give 1 to each of 10 ports, then have the DDs patrol zones alone, the effectiveness might be near zero. Same ships, all highly capable, utterly different outcomes. The japanese use was more like the 2d example.

tater

[cdrsubron7]

Originally Posted by tater

Toning the AI down too much would be a mistake, IMO. Remember that the stock campaign has 2 options, really good, and really crappy, yet there are actually 5 skill levels, even if the game rarely uses any but 1 and 3. On top of that, convoys are grossly overescorted.

If you read an overview book like Silent Victory it's pretty apparent that boats that made atatcks were usually attacked by escorts if there were any escorts with the target. The attacks were usually not fatal.

It's not that the IJN escorts had poor capability, it's that as a % of ships at sea, they have very few escorts, and poor doctrine for deploying them.

As an example, if you have 10 DDs that are every bit as capable as the best US escorts, you could use them very effectively to escort 1 or 2 convoys if your doctrine was to convoy ships. If your doctrine ws to take the 10 DDs, and give 1 to each of 10 ports, then have the DDs patrol zones alone, the effectiveness might be near zero. Same ships, all highly capable, utterly different outcomes. The japanese use was more like the 2d example.

tater

I'm not really looking for a way to tone down the enemy AI, just trying to get some ideas so I can sucessfully attack a convoy without being detected beyond 3000 yds. At 3000 yds with the enemy knowing you're around somewhere its hard to hit anything.




cdrsubron7

[tater]

I was replying to BH mostly, shoulda been more clear.

Part of the problem is that there are so many convoys, and they all have 4 fleet DDs escorting them. That would be a heavy escort for a military convoy from Truk to Rabaul. For shipping at large... lol. No.

The first step to a little more realism is to have fewer escorts, and less capable types (subchaser and minelayer).

tater

[Suicide Charlie]

Hmmm... I just got the game so I haven't been able to get enough time in the Command Room for me to really evaluate the AI's ASW effectiveness.

I was able to pentetrate a convoy somewhat easily earlier. There were three Akizuka destroyers. The closest two were on me pretty quickly, but seeing as I at 7knts and not running silent (and in TC so I don't have too much info on their initial detection and early closure) so I expected to be detected. I dove to about 130ft, dodged a few terribly emplyed Depth Charge runs and continued on past them. They continued to run search and attack patterns on an old position for pretty much the rest of my attack. Even after lighting up three merchants and sending them down they were just starting to turn back to investigate the trouble.

[Palidian]

Tater is correct, start counting the convoys and then the DDs there using as escorts, and then what they had in real life.... Sigh.... However I do not as of yet feel that there capability is unreasonable, I was able to get in on an invasion task force, 4 CAs 8 troop transports, 8 DDs or so. I got inside sank two CAs, and a transport, when I could not shake the DDs without running deep and silent, reloaded and did an end run and got in a second time. The key for me is to get in front go in between the escorts go beneath the thermal layer run silent, and wait for the sound contact to pass over head, then go to periscope depth. Remember they cannot hear you when you are behind them. In 1.3 they will spot and shoot at your periscope mind it, pop it up for short intervals.


How things should be, not sure if there in the game. If there using passive sonar then it dose not matter how you are facing, if there using active, then you want a small silhouette, IE point at them or away from them. The faster they are going the harder it is for them to hear you, and noise of other ships will interfere, if you are in between two ships, the noise they are making will block them from hearing you. The faster your are moving the larger the rooster tail your periscope makes.

[Lagger123987]

The AI improved a lot, Can't pass dem or evade them.

[switch.dota]

I just wiped out two troop transports (18kton + 9kton) that were escordted by 4 DDs. Granted I had the DDs on me for half of forever and then some but managed to get away.

As a general rule, I approach the convoy from about 10km, ~30AoB, running on a perpendicular course. This allows me to get into a firing position at a little over 1500m for most convoys. I typically adjust speed so as to get into position just as the lead DD passes by.

If I have time to gather enough data (rough seas at night with jsut enough light for ID) then I can target as many as 5 ships and light them up at approx the same time. Problem is I have to pray for one shot kills.

[Hartmann]

I think that the new ia is very correct and the mechannt behaviour very accurate.

the problem was before, too easy and arcade.

i always compare sh4 with sh1, and in sh1 not was too easy, i was sunk several times. now both games are very similar

[joea]

Originally Posted by BH

Japanese ASW is completely lacks historical accuracy.

Wait until beery finishes the updated version of RFB.

Read Tater's answer, we don't want arcade easy.

[Zero Niner]

Originally Posted by tater

As an example, if you have 10 DDs that are every bit as capable as the best US escorts, you could use them very effectively to escort 1 or 2 convoys if your doctrine was to convoy ships. If your doctrine ws to take the 10 DDs, and give 1 to each of 10 ports, then have the DDs patrol zones alone, the effectiveness might be near zero. Same ships, all highly capable, utterly different outcomes. The japanese use was more like the 2d example.

That's also my understanding of the Japanese doctrine on ASW and convoy escort. IIRC, convoy escort was regarded as something demeaning. Hence the IJN did not assign their capable skippers, nor the resources, into ASW and convoy duties.
I wonder if SH4 simulates this? :hmm:

[BH]

Even after the war started, it wasn't until late 1943-early 1944 that a effort was made to increase the amount of resources devoted to ASW. By that time, it was a matter of too little, too late. No ahead-firing weapons equivalent to the Hedgehog or Squid were developed, although an ASW projectile for many naval guns and a simple mortar for merchant ships were introduced late in the war.

Japanese attacks were usually broken off too soon and the DC settings were too shallow.

source:http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMJAP_ASW.htm


Joea, SH4 is suppose to be a simulation. They do make mods that make the ijn preform beyond historical reality and provide an excellent challenge(triggermaru)