My comment on the EU-treaty: World's greatest basar

Skybird · 06-23-07, 02:47 PM

The EU is celebrating, is talking of compromises, and of "having acted united". Everything is for the benefit of the people of course, all are a happy united family.

But the fighting has been bitter, and much damage has been done. The British once again played the card of the isolationist that they love to be so mucz since the Napoleonic wars, and WWII, and insisted on certain legal rulings not being binding for them, they also were building a front against a stronger foreign-political representation of a more powerful Europe. In principle Blair was telling Europe: we don't want to be with you, or like you. the anglosaxon connection is still alive, for the British, I fear, the channel always will be wider in size than the north atlantic. The Polish, like always when getting under pressure, revitalised old ressentiments and in a revanchists' manner demanded EU compensation in form of additional power for their dead in WWII, in fact claiming much more for themselves than what legally would be theirs according to the new ideas of a treaty. Gifts were given, money got offered, compromises were fought over again and again. France landed a short coup which in the end may not mean anything at all, but allows Sarko to return home as the defender against excessive liberalism - at the price of twelve furious hours of additional panic at the conference once his coup became public, risking the faliure of the complete show. And many others had demands, too. This is no storng allkiance - this is a giant kindergarten and everyone is throwing things and yells "It's my toy!"

If anyone thinks this is a display of a united Europe being engaged in Democratic actions, he better thinks twice. National egoism has brought the whole effort to the brink of total failure. Their was haggling like on an Oriental basar. the product was renamed, to deceive the European public that much of the constitution was tried to revitalised almost unchanged - the same constitution that was rejected by two major people two years ago, while other governments were clever enough from the beginning not to risk a referendum where in several countries it also would have failed. "In the name of the people?" the people explicitly and intentionally got excluded from this coup, and have no word in this. So much for "in the name of the people". The old constitution had hundreds of pages and was bigger than all 27 national constitution together. About the treaty now observers said it is only a dozen pages in original text - and then several dozen pages in footnotes, exceptions, special additional conditions etc, which makes the whole thing more difficult to understand than the old constitution.

but maybe that is the wanted effect? so that people on the street cannot understand what they are expected to celebrate. There will be no foreign minster, but a new foreign policy office with a posy title. The charta does not get mentioned anymore, but is referred to as nevertheless being legally binding. Several complications come from this, that will allow Brussels under the umbrella of these basic laws being binding to overrule national parliaments (the expressed will of the national voters) and national constitutions, that way accumulating More and more power in the hands of a bureaucratic structure that internally decides over it's form and personnel and never finds a democratic legitimation by the people of europe. The chairman of the commission creating that charta in good intention, Roman Herzog, makes it clear today that he cannot recognise their work in what Brussels abuses it for in order to eliminate national identity, and reducing the influence of private laws protecting the citizens against the arbitrariness of the state (Brussels, in this case). Not many know that the EU commission under Barosso has declared their will since month that certain paragraphs that explicitly by themselves (or by crossreferencing to sections of other still valid EU treaties) forbid being turned into the basis of creating legally binding rules and decrees, shall now be used exactly for this nevertheless: forming parlimant-overruling decrees. (This is the reason why I am so unforgiving against that chart, it is not about it's values themselves).

What we have seen the past 60 hours is nothing but an ongoing coup d'etat that aims and taking power and rights away from the European people, making them defenceless to ongoing administrative, undemocratic control and megalomania, and enforcing the qualitative detoriating of the cultural diversity and historic identity of the European people. several demands, as for example by the Dutch, that were aimed to give the national parliaments greater possibilities and tools to overrule decrees and rulings from Brussels, first were tried to get prevented,a nd when that was not possible, were watered down so much that it is questionable that the conditions for overruling Brussels can be met in real scenarios. Meanwhile, people in Europe get lied to when politicians already move around and tell us that it all is for our best interest and benefit, and is being done in our name. No, not in my name, and not in yours. We got kept away. We were prevented to influence it. We got betrayed and robbed of some more of our freedoms, and democratic heritage.

If you look at the massive display of brutal egoism and selfishness these two days, you can hardly assume that this was a shining example of unity, and functioning democracy. The winner is Brussels nevertheless, a good amount of the basic mechanisms and tools it needed to go on with reducing national sovereignty and the possibilities of the people to influence powerpolitics, had been secured nevertheless, despite the great fight, despite the people rejecting the constitution. the treachery lies in the details, as often, whereas of the basic texts good and solid propaganda can be made. I think, the complications in the texts are wanted - best camouflage one can think of!

Basic injustices remain to be untouched. Not only will half as many Poles than Germans for another ten years have as much voting power - there are some tasty financial conferences lying ahead where this will pay for Poland in gold and diamonds - , no, the European parliament remains almost useless and in itself does not adequately represent the composition of the different nation's people, making a Luxembourg citizen for example projecting almost twice as much decision making and voting power in the EU parliament than the German citizen (the factor 1.8). I currently do not know what has become of the point that Roman Herzog already attacked with determination: according to the treaty draft before the summit, the parliament would have been "reformed" in a way that this divergence and voting power would have even further increased: to a factor of 12 ! Herzog should know what he is talking about: he was judge at Germany's highest court, and German federal president, and chairman of the EU charta convent. He knows it inside out.

Several German newspapers today reminded their readers with some laconic humour that two years ago none of the German members of the Bundestag were able to correctly describe even single parts of the constitution they just had ratified. I am sure it was not different in other countries back then, and it will not be different with the ratification of the upcoming finalised version of the EU treaty, after today's decision has been filled with blood and flesh in another conference on government's level before the end of this year.

And while this hijacking of democracy and this capturing of freedoms is going on, people in Europe are sleeping. If this is the way in which Europe hopes to counter the rallying of it's global rivals and the marching of the competing blocks, then it has miserably failed to cover it's chances.

Comparisons with the federal structure of the US are pointless. The cultural and starting conditions cannot be compared.

If you need to fear reality more than your dreams because you lost it, you better hope to never wake up again at all.

I am not only not impressed - I am even more disillusioned. What I saw in the past two days - is simply disgusting.

Yahoshua · 06-23-07, 04:43 PM

If this passes, what are you going to do?

Skybird · 06-23-07, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

If this passes, what are you going to do?

Tja...

other question: imagine the Polish twins take over the EU presidency...

A politician from their coalition partner in government just was quoted today that Merkel "behaved as criminal as the Nazis."

Their constant nationalistic offendings of modern Germany become annoying, it goes like this since 1994, and constantly detoriated since then. Back then, when it was about Polish membership, they too time-travelled back into Nazi era time and again, and said that modern Germany is a Nazi state, ruled by a Nazi government trying to "dry out Poland" again.

I am generally neutral, even a bit sympathic towards Poland, but I also realize that my reserve of good willingness and patience is running out.

Things like such hate-filled, surreal attacks make it difficult for people like me who usually try to remember that not really a majority, but only around a quarter or a third of them is thinking like this. So:

If the Polish people at next elections vote for such nationalistic political factions again, I reserve the freedom to hold them accountable for their vote, and will see them accordingly, and will say that they should go to hell and leave us alone. Don't know if Poland needs Europe, but Europe certainly does not depend on Poland.

I hope they will learn something from the twins' term. their last elections gave them a high price to pay in European perception.

An anonymous high ranking political source should have revealed - so they said on radio - , that at the EU "everybody is sick and tired" of Poland, and not just since today.

Skybird · 06-23-07, 06:31 PM

And then there was this comment:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...109555,00.html

Yahoshua · 06-23-07, 07:49 PM

Was that your post?

The Avon Lady · 06-23-07, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

Was that your post?

I thought it was a suicide letter.

Don't do it Skybird!

The Avon Lady · 06-23-07, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

If this passes, what are you going to do?

Tja...

Do you really think moving to Bolivia will make you happy?

Skybird · 06-24-07, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

Was that your post?

No. Do you think my name is "Anne" ? Skybirdine always on my mind...

Skybird · 06-24-07, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

If this passes, what are you going to do?

Tja...

Do you really think moving to Bolivia will make you happy?

No, and what should i make of this link?

Yahoshua · 06-24-07, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

Was that your post?

No. Do you think my name is "Anne" ? Skybirdine always on my mind...

Nowadays it's harder to tell the difference......

Skybird · 06-24-07, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

Nowadays it's harder to tell the difference......

I see what you mean

Berlin, 23rd July 2007 :
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/0,5538,22642,00.html

The Avon Lady · 06-24-07, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

Nowadays it's harder to tell the difference......

I see what you mean

Berlin, 23rd July 2007 :
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/0,5538,22642,00.html

Who would have known that the Germans adore Phyllis Diller?!

Well, I suppose that's not much different than France's craze for Jerry Lewis.

Hakahura · 06-24-07, 02:09 PM

Hmmm Skybird

Whilst most of your original post is factual, what do you expect?

Of course Poland feels agrieved about losing some of it's voting power, who would'nt be. None of the statements made by their leader are factually incorrect are they? Just an unpleasent truth. You cannot blame Poland for feeling a sense national idenitity, after years of being mistreated at the hands of both Germany and Russia they are finally free and naturally reluctant to surrender themelves over to another form of dictatorship.

Then you say that Blair is looking out for British interests. Well about time too I say! He is (still just) the British Prime Minister. Its his job to look out for British interests. Though it is too little to late.

Not forgetting that a weak Europe has and always will be in the UK's interests.

What would you have national leaders do look out for other nations interests before their own? That sounds awfully close to treason to me.

People are naturally reluctant to have the will of others forced upon them. Thats what negotiation is for, even if it takes 100years.

Why is it necessary for the EU (I prefered the EEC) to have any of these Treatys/Constitutions/Dicatorial rules? Is it not enough to just trade with each other? As I understand thats what we were all originaly duped into joining up to.

What should Europe do? Bow to the wishes of the German/French federal power block?

Don't even get me started on the idea of a common foriegn policy.

06-24-07, 02:19 PM

The real question. Based on the arcticles I've seen from the German media is; why does Germany want to make all other EU nations weeker politically than Germany.

Why is it 'egotistical' to defend ones own nation politically? And not give into the German sense of superiority.

Hakahura · 06-24-07, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waste gate

The real question. Based on the arcticles I've seen from the German media is; why does Germany want to make all other EU nations weeker politically than Germany.

Because it's in their national interest.

06-23-07, 02:47 PM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	My comment on the EU-treaty: World's greatest basar The EU is celebrating, is talking of compromises, and of "having acted united". Everything is for the benefit of the people of course, all are a happy united family. But the fighting has been bitter, and much damage has been done. The British once again played the card of the isolationist that they love to be so mucz since the Napoleonic wars, and WWII, and insisted on certain legal rulings not being binding for them, they also were building a front against a stronger foreign-political representation of a more powerful Europe. In principle Blair was telling Europe: we don't want to be with you, or like you. the anglosaxon connection is still alive, for the British, I fear, the channel always will be wider in size than the north atlantic. The Polish, like always when getting under pressure, revitalised old ressentiments and in a revanchists' manner demanded EU compensation in form of additional power for their dead in WWII, in fact claiming much more for themselves than what legally would be theirs according to the new ideas of a treaty. Gifts were given, money got offered, compromises were fought over again and again. France landed a short coup which in the end may not mean anything at all, but allows Sarko to return home as the defender against excessive liberalism - at the price of twelve furious hours of additional panic at the conference once his coup became public, risking the faliure of the complete show. And many others had demands, too. This is no storng allkiance - this is a giant kindergarten and everyone is throwing things and yells "It's my toy!" If anyone thinks this is a display of a united Europe being engaged in Democratic actions, he better thinks twice. National egoism has brought the whole effort to the brink of total failure. Their was haggling like on an Oriental basar. the product was renamed, to deceive the European public that much of the constitution was tried to revitalised almost unchanged - the same constitution that was rejected by two major people two years ago, while other governments were clever enough from the beginning not to risk a referendum where in several countries it also would have failed. "In the name of the people?" the people explicitly and intentionally got excluded from this coup, and have no word in this. So much for "in the name of the people". The old constitution had hundreds of pages and was bigger than all 27 national constitution together. About the treaty now observers said it is only a dozen pages in original text - and then several dozen pages in footnotes, exceptions, special additional conditions etc, which makes the whole thing more difficult to understand than the old constitution. but maybe that is the wanted effect? so that people on the street cannot understand what they are expected to celebrate. There will be no foreign minster, but a new foreign policy office with a posy title. The charta does not get mentioned anymore, but is referred to as nevertheless being legally binding. Several complications come from this, that will allow Brussels under the umbrella of these basic laws being binding to overrule national parliaments (the expressed will of the national voters) and national constitutions, that way accumulating More and more power in the hands of a bureaucratic structure that internally decides over it's form and personnel and never finds a democratic legitimation by the people of europe. The chairman of the commission creating that charta in good intention, Roman Herzog, makes it clear today that he cannot recognise their work in what Brussels abuses it for in order to eliminate national identity, and reducing the influence of private laws protecting the citizens against the arbitrariness of the state (Brussels, in this case). Not many know that the EU commission under Barosso has declared their will since month that certain paragraphs that explicitly by themselves (or by crossreferencing to sections of other still valid EU treaties) forbid being turned into the basis of creating legally binding rules and decrees, shall now be used exactly for this nevertheless: forming parlimant-overruling decrees. (This is the reason why I am so unforgiving against that chart, it is not about it's values themselves). What we have seen the past 60 hours is nothing but an ongoing coup d'etat that aims and taking power and rights away from the European people, making them defenceless to ongoing administrative, undemocratic control and megalomania, and enforcing the qualitative detoriating of the cultural diversity and historic identity of the European people. several demands, as for example by the Dutch, that were aimed to give the national parliaments greater possibilities and tools to overrule decrees and rulings from Brussels, first were tried to get prevented,a nd when that was not possible, were watered down so much that it is questionable that the conditions for overruling Brussels can be met in real scenarios. Meanwhile, people in Europe get lied to when politicians already move around and tell us that it all is for our best interest and benefit, and is being done in our name. No, not in my name, and not in yours. We got kept away. We were prevented to influence it. We got betrayed and robbed of some more of our freedoms, and democratic heritage. If you look at the massive display of brutal egoism and selfishness these two days, you can hardly assume that this was a shining example of unity, and functioning democracy. The winner is Brussels nevertheless, a good amount of the basic mechanisms and tools it needed to go on with reducing national sovereignty and the possibilities of the people to influence powerpolitics, had been secured nevertheless, despite the great fight, despite the people rejecting the constitution. the treachery lies in the details, as often, whereas of the basic texts good and solid propaganda can be made. I think, the complications in the texts are wanted - best camouflage one can think of! Basic injustices remain to be untouched. Not only will half as many Poles than Germans for another ten years have as much voting power - there are some tasty financial conferences lying ahead where this will pay for Poland in gold and diamonds - , no, the European parliament remains almost useless and in itself does not adequately represent the composition of the different nation's people, making a Luxembourg citizen for example projecting almost twice as much decision making and voting power in the EU parliament than the German citizen (the factor 1.8). I currently do not know what has become of the point that Roman Herzog already attacked with determination: according to the treaty draft before the summit, the parliament would have been "reformed" in a way that this divergence and voting power would have even further increased: to a factor of 12 ! Herzog should know what he is talking about: he was judge at Germany's highest court, and German federal president, and chairman of the EU charta convent. He knows it inside out. Several German newspapers today reminded their readers with some laconic humour that two years ago none of the German members of the Bundestag were able to correctly describe even single parts of the constitution they just had ratified. I am sure it was not different in other countries back then, and it will not be different with the ratification of the upcoming finalised version of the EU treaty, after today's decision has been filled with blood and flesh in another conference on government's level before the end of this year. And while this hijacking of democracy and this capturing of freedoms is going on, people in Europe are sleeping. If this is the way in which Europe hopes to counter the rallying of it's global rivals and the marching of the competing blocks, then it has miserably failed to cover it's chances. Comparisons with the federal structure of the US are pointless. The cultural and starting conditions cannot be compared. If you need to fear reality more than your dreams because you lost it, you better hope to never wake up again at all. I am not only not impressed - I am even more disillusioned. What I saw in the past two days - is simply disgusting. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 06-24-07 at 04:11 AM.

06-23-07, 04:43 PM	#2
Yahoshua The Old Man Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,493 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	If this passes, what are you going to do? __________________ Science is the organized unpredictability that strives not to set limits to mans' capabilities, but is the engine by which the limits of mans' understanding is defined-Yahoshua

06-23-07, 06:31 PM	#4
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	And then there was this comment: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...109555,00.html __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 06-24-07 at 03:59 AM.

06-23-07, 07:49 PM	#5
Yahoshua The Old Man Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,493 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Was that your post? __________________ Science is the organized unpredictability that strives not to set limits to mans' capabilities, but is the engine by which the limits of mans' understanding is defined-Yahoshua

06-24-07, 02:09 PM	#13
Hakahura Grey Wolf Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland Posts: 785 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Hmmm Skybird Whilst most of your original post is factual, what do you expect? Of course Poland feels agrieved about losing some of it's voting power, who would'nt be. None of the statements made by their leader are factually incorrect are they? Just an unpleasent truth. You cannot blame Poland for feeling a sense national idenitity, after years of being mistreated at the hands of both Germany and Russia they are finally free and naturally reluctant to surrender themelves over to another form of dictatorship. Then you say that Blair is looking out for British interests. Well about time too I say! He is (still just) the British Prime Minister. Its his job to look out for British interests. Though it is too little to late. Not forgetting that a weak Europe has and always will be in the UK's interests. What would you have national leaders do look out for other nations interests before their own? That sounds awfully close to treason to me. People are naturally reluctant to have the will of others forced upon them. Thats what negotiation is for, even if it takes 100years. Why is it necessary for the EU (I prefered the EEC) to have any of these Treatys/Constitutions/Dicatorial rules? Is it not enough to just trade with each other? As I understand thats what we were all originaly duped into joining up to. What should Europe do? Bow to the wishes of the German/French federal power block? Don't even get me started on the idea of a common foriegn policy. __________________ Sir Humphey Appleby, GCB, KBE, MVO and MA. Britain's Greatest Orator, well bar that Churchill fellow.

06-24-07, 02:19 PM	#14
waste gate Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	The real question. Based on the arcticles I've seen from the German media is; why does Germany want to make all other EU nations weeker politically than Germany. Why is it 'egotistical' to defend ones own nation politically? And not give into the German sense of superiority.