these DDs ain't stupid

Capt. Shark Bait · 05-04-07, 06:55 PM

came across a huge euro liner and set an intercept course. after a bit a DD shows up so i goto periscope depth and continue on, keeping an eye on said DD. after a bit more i get more contacts, 4 DDs and a passenger ship. eventually i fire 2 on the liner and at that same moment one of the newer contacts cuts across my course so i let ine more go hoping to the that DD, but all missed. so, i go deep, 200' and run silent with one partially loaded tube. i got away then came about to let the last go free and it misses as well so i set a course to the SW via previously plotted waypoints. i'm 3k yrds from from the passenger ship so i got periscope depth the check on things. all 4 destroyers are still me. they followed me while i was at 200' along the course that was set. i go deep again to no avail. the thermal layer wasn't much help either. finished it up at 755'

SteamWake · 05-04-07, 09:05 PM

See Ive been saying all along. The DD's arent all that stupid.

I keep reading these posts about brain dead AI personally Ive run accross a couple of stupid ones. For instance sitting directly in front of me at 400 yards at a dead stop listening (key word being dead).

But for the most part they have been reactive, and aggressive.

I lost a carrer tonight while trying to slip through cape horn. Got spotted visually (may have been radar hard to tell) at night in shallow water.

I tried to settle down on the bottom and go silent. ping ping... uth oh... ash cans right on top of us.. big time trouble flooding and the damn scopes .. both of them damaged ! not to mention the pumps and flooding.

We HAD to surface and try to slug it out. Captain Frank Thompsin RIP....

Ducimus · 05-04-07, 09:15 PM

AI detection stock is rather lack luster to understate it. What's really grabbing you by the nuts is the disparity in crew rating assigned to various AI. Crew ratings scale from 0 to 4. And if lessons learned from SH3 still hold true, Crew rating of 0, may as well be mentailly retarded. Crew rating of 4, is Bungo Petes evil twin brother.

orangenee · 05-04-07, 09:20 PM

I had a run in with some DDs but managed to get away from them, it took a long time though they kept finding me again, then once they seemed to have given up, they ate some torpedo. The AI seems pretty tight to me.

Tarl · 05-04-07, 09:48 PM

I mentioned this in a different thread. Enemy AI appears to vary from contact to contact. Not sure if the timeline has anything to do with it, but I started a campaign in Dec 1941 and was forced to retire in early 1943. Too bad because I just acquired a Balao class sub.

So.... restarted a new campaign in early 1944 and started with a Balao this time. (I mean comeon, I had already been promoted into one).

...the missions I've played this time around, very TUFF AI for the DDs. I've been sunk twice and damaged so bad (other times) where I couldn't continue the mission, repair or make it back to base (ie, rudder destroyed, dive planes destroyed...etc.)

So yes, earlier in the game I had some DDs that were easy to fool and get around, and I've had some really TUFF cookies that continue to persist and track you, DC u and actually sink u.

-Pv- · 05-05-07, 12:15 AM

I've also seen strong indication the enemy AI improves with war period and that would be historically correct.

I've had a lot of trouble with armed cargo ships.
Finishing them off with cannon isn't always a safe thing. I now attack them from the far side after they've begin listing.

Some aircraft are sneaky. Will watch them fly by and circle around on radar, then come back at low level under the radar (getting a late visual) for a quick straif. My whole crew gets a very heart pounding workout when this happens.

The task force sub hunters use a very effective technique that's hard to counter, so I work to avoid them.

The distances, highly variable weather, shallow target areas around complex island chains is very satisfying to me. Knowing how effective the DDs and DCs can be, it's very satisfying when I evade near misses with the boat rocking to the DC dance.
Over-all, I find this game more challenging than SH3 though the convoy evasion logic needs some work. In the Silent Service game I knew I only had one good shot at the convoy before I would be pounded under for sometimes hours before I could give the long chase to contact for a second try. I've yet to experience that level in this game although the DD can keep me effectively pinned once they know where to look. I try to deny them that which adds to the planning and drama in the attack. Once I hear the steady pinging, I know the dance is about the start and I have to give the game my full attention.
-Pv-

AVGWarhawk · 05-05-07, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

AI detection stock is rather lack luster to understate it. What's really grabbing you by the nuts is the disparity in crew rating assigned to various AI. Crew ratings scale from 0 to 4. And if lessons learned from SH3 still hold true, Crew rating of 0, may as well be mentailly retarded. Crew rating of 4, is Bungo Petes evil twin brother.

I'm voting on this post. It is a mixed bag with the DD, some are kick butt and others are deaf and blind. One nice thing is you do not know what you are going to get so running at them like a nut can be successful or you could be very dead. I find more lack luster than Deadeye Dick at the helm of the DD. There needs to more consistency with the Deadeye Dick to keep it interesting. Last night I decimated an entire convoy after blasting three DD with my deck cannon. Not what I call realistic. Also, the AI merchant need to act like the merchant should, zig-zag and full ahead. I see very little of this.

Right now I see the AI tuned for the casual gamer looking to blast everything and having a great time at it. No problem there, desired effect achieved. Luckly for guys looking to simulate closely what it was like we have guys like Ducimus who tweek the AI and make them harder to handle. I have not installed the harder AI as yet, waiting on next patch for that. All in all at this point, the AI DD are not that bad, IMHO.

Capt. Shark Bait · 05-05-07, 08:29 AM

the deaf and blind you mention happened to me as well. sank 3 freighters with my deck gun and had a destroyer maybe not much more than 1500yrds off just moving about, "searching"

not sure which i preferr:hmm:

ryanwigginton · 05-05-07, 08:53 AM

Three times now I've ran into convoys with destroyer escorts usually on the surface in rough seas. And its a turkey shoot. The destroyers just seem to mince around not knowing what to do. One even sailed straight past me a hundred metres away dropping depth charges when I'm blatantly on the surface laughing at his feeble attempts. This is a perfect example of the bad AI. I think for some reason the crews manning the deck gun when infact they shouldn't be permitted. Historically, could the destroyers fire in rough seas? -I don't know (did they have automated guns) But anyway I fire until I run out of ammo then dissapear without a scratch and I have 100% realism set. Sort it out! For this reason I put the game to one-side YET AGAIN until the next patch... can't wait to play, but not worth it until these faults are fixed -would be like watching a pirate DVD. Or sneaking a peak at your christmas prezzies... You just spoil it for yourself.

SteamWake · 05-05-07, 09:06 AM

There may be somthing to the later in the war argument as I tend to play campaigns started more or less in the middle of the war.

I have seen very few "brain dead" DD's.

marky · 05-05-07, 03:30 PM

hmm

id have to disagree

ive been in the middle of convoys with my scope up and having the conning tower broaching and they STILL didnt attack

i sank 6 ships out of a convoy in the East China Sea, without a single ashcan being tossed

and therer were at least 4 Jap DDs in the area

Cap'n Crabs · 05-05-07, 07:52 PM

I'm not sure what to think. I am leaning toward the DD's having better gear later in the war.

It's april '43, I approach this convoy and attack when they are in a good group.
The DD's start pinging away. They find me and are closing towards me. I crash dive, then go to silent running. I drop down to 250 ft, a little below the thermal, but not good enough, they start dropping cans. All my evasion tactics fail, they keep finding me. Eventually they killed me.

I reloaded the mission several times to test it. I found it is apparently my own fault.
Even though I was below the thermal and running silent, it would not do.
I was using the speed helm at default, running it's slowest setting, however, that is still too much noise. I dropped down to 320 ft... still finding me.

What I needed to do is switch the speed helm to the "incremental" view, where I could set a slower turn.
When I hear them ramp up speed to make a run on me, I would go flank, then do a hard port or starboard shut down and coast.

I found they would lose me if I went no faster than 1.5 maybe 2 kts.
I was able to very slowly creep away and they would just pound the water from where they detected me.

I'm sure some guys probably discussed doing this in other posts and I missed it. But that's the only way I could escape them, and in '43 is when I noticed them being tougher.
Don't know about surface shootouts, as I try to avoid that if I can.

AVGWarhawk · 05-05-07, 09:58 PM

I just got a nasty DD. Darn thing was still blasting me and his deck was a good 45 degrees over

Cap'n Crabs · 05-05-07, 11:08 PM

That'll teach ya to play on the surface.

SteamWake · 05-05-07, 11:41 PM

It seems to be a position thing.

If your outside the convoy looking in your in risky buisness.

If your in the middle of the fleet the DD's go brain dead and dont know what to do.

I'm gonna guess and say it has to do with the "noise" from all those screws churining and they cant pick you out from the background noise.

But thats just a guess.

05-04-07, 06:55 PM	#1
Capt. Shark Bait Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: in a convergance zone Posts: 1,186 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	these DDs ain't stupid came across a huge euro liner and set an intercept course. after a bit a DD shows up so i goto periscope depth and continue on, keeping an eye on said DD. after a bit more i get more contacts, 4 DDs and a passenger ship. eventually i fire 2 on the liner and at that same moment one of the newer contacts cuts across my course so i let ine more go hoping to the that DD, but all missed. so, i go deep, 200' and run silent with one partially loaded tube. i got away then came about to let the last go free and it misses as well so i set a course to the SW via previously plotted waypoints. i'm 3k yrds from from the passenger ship so i got periscope depth the check on things. all 4 destroyers are still me. they followed me while i was at 200' along the course that was set. i go deep again to no avail. the thermal layer wasn't much help either. finished it up at 755' __________________ Leiser und tödlicher edler Ritter der Tiefe Corsair Vengeance M70; ASUS Crosshair V Formula-Z; FX 8350; Asus 7870; Samsung SyncMaster 2243SWX; coolmax CUG950B 950w psu; 8GB Kingston HyperX DDR3; Corsair M4 SSD 128GB, WD 1TB; x18 DVR212D; 7SP1

05-05-07, 08:29 AM	#8
Capt. Shark Bait Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: in a convergance zone Posts: 1,186 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	the deaf and blind you mention happened to me as well. sank 3 freighters with my deck gun and had a destroyer maybe not much more than 1500yrds off just moving about, "searching" not sure which i preferr:hmm: __________________ Leiser und tödlicher edler Ritter der Tiefe Corsair Vengeance M70; ASUS Crosshair V Formula-Z; FX 8350; Asus 7870; Samsung SyncMaster 2243SWX; coolmax CUG950B 950w psu; 8GB Kingston HyperX DDR3; Corsair M4 SSD 128GB, WD 1TB; x18 DVR212D; 7SP1

05-05-07, 09:58 PM	#13
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,253 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	I just got a nasty DD. Darn thing was still blasting me and his deck was a good 45 degrees over __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

05-04-07, 09:05 PM	#2
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	See Ive been saying all along. The DD's arent all that stupid. I keep reading these posts about brain dead AI personally Ive run accross a couple of stupid ones. For instance sitting directly in front of me at 400 yards at a dead stop listening (key word being dead). But for the most part they have been reactive, and aggressive. I lost a carrer tonight while trying to slip through cape horn. Got spotted visually (may have been radar hard to tell) at night in shallow water. I tried to settle down on the bottom and go silent. ping ping... uth oh... ash cans right on top of us.. big time trouble flooding and the damn scopes .. both of them damaged ! not to mention the pumps and flooding. We HAD to surface and try to slug it out. Captain Frank Thompsin RIP....

05-04-07, 09:15 PM	#3
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	AI detection stock is rather lack luster to understate it. What's really grabbing you by the nuts is the disparity in crew rating assigned to various AI. Crew ratings scale from 0 to 4. And if lessons learned from SH3 still hold true, Crew rating of 0, may as well be mentailly retarded. Crew rating of 4, is Bungo Petes evil twin brother.

05-04-07, 09:20 PM	#4
orangenee Engineer Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 211 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I had a run in with some DDs but managed to get away from them, it took a long time though they kept finding me again, then once they seemed to have given up, they ate some torpedo. The AI seems pretty tight to me.

05-04-07, 09:48 PM	#5
Tarl Watch Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 18 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	I mentioned this in a different thread. Enemy AI appears to vary from contact to contact. Not sure if the timeline has anything to do with it, but I started a campaign in Dec 1941 and was forced to retire in early 1943. Too bad because I just acquired a Balao class sub. So.... restarted a new campaign in early 1944 and started with a Balao this time. (I mean comeon, I had already been promoted into one). ...the missions I've played this time around, very TUFF AI for the DDs. I've been sunk twice and damaged so bad (other times) where I couldn't continue the mission, repair or make it back to base (ie, rudder destroyed, dive planes destroyed...etc.) So yes, earlier in the game I had some DDs that were easy to fool and get around, and I've had some really TUFF cookies that continue to persist and track you, DC u and actually sink u.

05-05-07, 12:15 AM	#6
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I've also seen strong indication the enemy AI improves with war period and that would be historically correct. I've had a lot of trouble with armed cargo ships. Finishing them off with cannon isn't always a safe thing. I now attack them from the far side after they've begin listing. Some aircraft are sneaky. Will watch them fly by and circle around on radar, then come back at low level under the radar (getting a late visual) for a quick straif. My whole crew gets a very heart pounding workout when this happens. The task force sub hunters use a very effective technique that's hard to counter, so I work to avoid them. The distances, highly variable weather, shallow target areas around complex island chains is very satisfying to me. Knowing how effective the DDs and DCs can be, it's very satisfying when I evade near misses with the boat rocking to the DC dance. Over-all, I find this game more challenging than SH3 though the convoy evasion logic needs some work. In the Silent Service game I knew I only had one good shot at the convoy before I would be pounded under for sometimes hours before I could give the long chase to contact for a second try. I've yet to experience that level in this game although the DD can keep me effectively pinned once they know where to look. I try to deny them that which adds to the planning and drama in the attack. Once I hear the steady pinging, I know the dance is about the start and I have to give the game my full attention. -Pv-

05-05-07, 08:53 AM	#9
ryanwigginton Weps Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nottinghamshire Posts: 368 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 0	Three times now I've ran into convoys with destroyer escorts usually on the surface in rough seas. And its a turkey shoot. The destroyers just seem to mince around not knowing what to do. One even sailed straight past me a hundred metres away dropping depth charges when I'm blatantly on the surface laughing at his feeble attempts. This is a perfect example of the bad AI. I think for some reason the crews manning the deck gun when infact they shouldn't be permitted. Historically, could the destroyers fire in rough seas? -I don't know (did they have automated guns) But anyway I fire until I run out of ammo then dissapear without a scratch and I have 100% realism set. Sort it out! For this reason I put the game to one-side YET AGAIN until the next patch... can't wait to play, but not worth it until these faults are fixed -would be like watching a pirate DVD. Or sneaking a peak at your christmas prezzies... You just spoil it for yourself.

05-05-07, 09:06 AM	#10
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	There may be somthing to the later in the war argument as I tend to play campaigns started more or less in the middle of the war. I have seen very few "brain dead" DD's.

05-05-07, 07:52 PM	#12
Cap'n Crabs A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 71 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	I'm not sure what to think. I am leaning toward the DD's having better gear later in the war. It's april '43, I approach this convoy and attack when they are in a good group. The DD's start pinging away. They find me and are closing towards me. I crash dive, then go to silent running. I drop down to 250 ft, a little below the thermal, but not good enough, they start dropping cans. All my evasion tactics fail, they keep finding me. Eventually they killed me. I reloaded the mission several times to test it. I found it is apparently my own fault. Even though I was below the thermal and running silent, it would not do. I was using the speed helm at default, running it's slowest setting, however, that is still too much noise. I dropped down to 320 ft... still finding me. What I needed to do is switch the speed helm to the "incremental" view, where I could set a slower turn. When I hear them ramp up speed to make a run on me, I would go flank, then do a hard port or starboard shut down and coast. I found they would lose me if I went no faster than 1.5 maybe 2 kts. I was able to very slowly creep away and they would just pound the water from where they detected me. I'm sure some guys probably discussed doing this in other posts and I missed it. But that's the only way I could escape them, and in '43 is when I noticed them being tougher. Don't know about surface shootouts, as I try to avoid that if I can.

05-05-07, 11:08 PM	#14
Cap'n Crabs A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 71 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	That'll teach ya to play on the surface.

05-05-07, 11:41 PM	#15
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	It seems to be a position thing. If your outside the convoy looking in your in risky buisness. If your in the middle of the fleet the DD's go brain dead and dont know what to do. I'm gonna guess and say it has to do with the "noise" from all those screws churining and they cant pick you out from the background noise. But thats just a guess.