What would "history" do?

mangaroca · 05-03-07, 05:32 AM

Hi All,

I have just encountered a Large Convoy going West @5kts. It is guarded by 4 Black Swan Frigates and a light Dido class cruiser in the middle. The weather is perfect, sea state - 1 (flat & smooth as the skin of an 18-year-old girl...). My position is directly behind them. I'm closing @AK Vorraus with 11 torpedoes. It is just after 4 P.M.

What would a real U-boot Kapitan do?
- Go to the left/right; get ahead of the Convoy; wait till night comes; submerge and get between the ships real quite; fire all 5 tubes and flee to reload?
- Attract one excort after another and get rid of them; than surface and take out the merchants with the Deck Gun?

Hmmm, I suppose the first option is more probable... BUT!!! I recon, the score would be 3 sunk ships at best! When, after performing option two the Commander could score over 40 000 - 50 000 BTR with ease!

My questions:

A) Why did the Germans use option 1 instead of (more succesfull) 2?
B) What would YOU do in this situation Commanders?

Cheers!

Henri II · 05-03-07, 05:51 AM

Well, in reallity, without auto TDC and WO assistance, option 2 would certainly not be the most successfull. Even if you could sink one of the escorts, the others would swarm you and keep you down and away from the convoy long enough for it to escape. Also if a boat just surfaced in the middle of a convoy and started shooting, the ships in reallity would not behave as they do in the game. They would probably scatter in every direction and leave you with only one or two targets, or tried to ram the u-boat.

wireman · 05-03-07, 05:53 AM

Most u-boat commanders didn't want those pesky 4.7 inch holes in their pressure hulls. That's why they went for option one.

rb4door · 05-03-07, 05:56 AM

I havnt studied / read enough U boat tactics to comment historically, however correct me if I am wrong, their primary objective was to put a strangle-hold on supplies to GB, so I would imagine a real U boat would want to get in, and sink as many supply ships as possible.

As much as I enjoy sinking an escort, they still complete their objective if I do, which is to lure (or chase) you away from sinking the supply ships. I try and remember its a waste of an eel every time I fire at an escort , especially when I am intercepting a convoy.

I'd go with your initial plan of attack - shadow the convoy, call it in to BdU so they can direct other U boats to also intercept. Get infront of it, await nightfall - then sneak in past the escorts, and sink them all

Good luck, good hunting

Jimbuna · 05-03-07, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mangaroca

Hi All,

I have just encountered a Large Convoy going West @5kts. It is guarded by 4 Black Swan Frigates and a light Dido class cruiser in the middle. The weather is perfect, sea state - 1 (flat & smooth as the skin of an 18-year-old girl...). My position is directly behind them. I'm closing @AK Vorraus with 11 torpedoes. It is just after 4 P.M.

What would a real U-boot Kapitan do?
- Go to the left/right; get ahead of the Convoy; wait till night comes; submerge and get between the ships real quite; fire all 5 tubes and flee to reload?
- Attract one excort after another and get rid of them; than surface and take out the merchants with the Deck Gun?

Hmmm, I suppose the first option is more probable... BUT!!! I recon, the score would be 3 sunk ships at best! When, after performing option two the Commander could score over 40 000 - 50 000 BTR with ease!

My questions:

A) Why did the Germans use option 1 instead of (more succesfull) 2?
B) What would YOU do in this situation Commanders?

Cheers!

A) A U-boat was most vulnerable on the surface and no match for the firepower of a warship in a gun duel. If the pressure hull was breached it wouldn't be able to dive.
B) Option 1

Vacillator · 05-03-07, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mangaroca

... guarded by 4 Black Swan Frigates and a light Dido class cruiser in the middle...

Attract one excort after another and get rid of them; than surface and take out the merchants with the Deck Gun? score over 40 000 - 50 000 BTR with ease!

Hmmm, I think not either historically or in GWX. IMHO no real Kaleuns would have considered sinking 4 Black Swans plus a Dido an easy task or a safe option.

Infiltrate the convoy and use your torpedoes for the merchants. In the dark on the surface is good and with one torpoedo one ship gives a good haul (particularly if you're into reloading in the middle of a convoy).

However, not everyone is Silent Otto, including me

. I'll try it and have succeeded sometimes but if I fail it's still just a game. Most Kaleuns would probably fire a spead from outside the convoy and dive deep, particularly later in the war.

Canovaro · 05-03-07, 07:43 AM

I don't know what realism level you alre playing and which mod you are using, but with GWX and 100% realism, forget about option 2 and go for option 1 still with fear in your heart, or forget about the convoy altogether.

CaptainAsh · 05-03-07, 09:08 AM

with such escort I don t think they would have try to get to close range. Side shoot at 1500-2000 metters

Sailor Steve · 05-03-07, 11:06 AM

Instead of asking "what would a real kaleun do?", ask yourself "if I was in this 'iron coffin' what would I really do?"

Pretty much the same thing, but if you try to put yourself there and think of your crew and (I know, we're not supposed to be cowards, but...) your own life, then you will be thinking of how to get the best shot and then escape.

Remember, once you're dead you're not going to be sinking many more of those fat merchants!

fatty · 05-03-07, 11:26 AM

In real-life escorts were not so stupid as to wander off alone. Destroying a u-boat is a bonus but the survival of the convoy is of utmost importance. They would either come after you in force (unlikely, given the threat of diversions through wolfpack tactics) or not come at all.

Hitman · 05-04-07, 03:27 PM

Quote:

- Attract one excort after another and get rid of them; than surface and take out the merchants with the Deck Gun?

Ever tried to kill an escort with manual shooting?

You will need not just one but probably a salvo of three torpedoes. And if more than one escort go for you, you might kill one but be held down at 200 metres until the convoy is really, really far away. If you are playing at 100% realism, simply forget about that. Real life Kaleuns? be sure they would not go around wasting 10.000 Deutsche Mark torpedoes in rows of three against sloops only to find themselves hunted for hours while teh convoy steams away. If the escorts did not get them, Onkel Karl (Dönitz) would ensure their next assignement is to patrol the east front in underwear

GoldenRivet · 05-04-07, 03:53 PM

the only times i have managed to take out an escort...

i was stalking a convoy at night and the escort broke off to the side of the convoy while zig zagging, he went out a few KMs and then returned to the convoy in a straight line. as he was travelling in this straight line, i fired a salvo of 2 steamers at him.. they both hit just below the command deck and resulted in an impressive explosion. I repeated this tactic to kill the two remaining escorts, but it took me about 3 or 4 days worth of stalking and repositioning, it consumed a lot of fuel, and cost me 6 torpedoes that could have been better used against the tankers.

the second time was fairly recently, i ran across a huge convoy escorted by only 2 corvettes. i ignored the escorts and got past them undetected and managed to sink a whale factory ship, and a large tanker. i damaged a medium cargo ship, dove deep and let the convoy pass overhead. both corvettes responded and depth charged overhead for a whie then left. i surfeced some time later to finish off the straggling and damaged medium cargo ship with my deck gun. Several rounds into the beating one of the corvettes was returning. i turned my deck gun on the flower corvette and estimated the range to be about 8,000 meters through the UZO and sent 4 shells after him. i watched through the UZO and 3 shells fell short, the 4th shell landed right on his gun and blew it off. i crashed down to 100 meters and let the flower corvette pound the sea for a few minutes, when he was headed away i blew the ballast and surfaced abotu 2500 meters astern of him and finished him off with the deck gun with surprising ease.

i can assure you though, regardless of the year of the war (especailly late in the war when radar is capable of picking up a raised periscope) it is virtually impossible to take out a dedicated escort when playing with any kind of respectable realism.

Spytrx · 05-04-07, 05:45 PM

I would take on a escort if the game didn't have that stupid bug that even if you shoot a DD's arse off it still steams at you with 35 knts...

But to be frank - I go for it anyway (in R/L that is), because one lost warship is harder to replace than 10 merchants

Especially when I am out in the Atlantic - the thought behind it is simple - I take out an escort, another wolf might take out one more and quickly the rest of my brethren closer to home can take on the whole convoy without fear

Ducimus · 05-04-07, 08:48 PM

Shadow the convoy until dark. Then move in for a night surface attack. Under callm sea's, (perfect sonar conditions), submerging should be avoided if possible. However if destroyer Bow angle is 0, with a big frothy white beard, its time to pull the plug and head for the cellar.

TarJak · 05-05-07, 12:54 AM

Get around in front and go for the merchies. I avoid taking donw escorts unless there is no choice and prefer to get the job done on the merchies and escape and evade afterwards.

05-03-07, 05:32 AM	#1
mangaroca Bosun Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Deep and diving... Posts: 62 Downloads: 52 Uploads: 0	What would "history" do? Hi All, I have just encountered a Large Convoy going West @5kts. It is guarded by 4 Black Swan Frigates and a light Dido class cruiser in the middle. The weather is perfect, sea state - 1 (flat & smooth as the skin of an 18-year-old girl...). My position is directly behind them. I'm closing @AK Vorraus with 11 torpedoes. It is just after 4 P.M. What would a real U-boot Kapitan do? - Go to the left/right; get ahead of the Convoy; wait till night comes; submerge and get between the ships real quite; fire all 5 tubes and flee to reload? - Attract one excort after another and get rid of them; than surface and take out the merchants with the Deck Gun? Hmmm, I suppose the first option is more probable... BUT!!! I recon, the score would be 3 sunk ships at best! When, after performing option two the Commander could score over 40 000 - 50 000 BTR with ease! My questions: A) Why did the Germans use option 1 instead of (more succesfull) 2? B) What would YOU do in this situation Commanders? Cheers!

05-03-07, 05:51 AM	#2
Henri II Sparky Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 156 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 0	Well, in reallity, without auto TDC and WO assistance, option 2 would certainly not be the most successfull. Even if you could sink one of the escorts, the others would swarm you and keep you down and away from the convoy long enough for it to escape. Also if a boat just surfaced in the middle of a convoy and started shooting, the ships in reallity would not behave as they do in the game. They would probably scatter in every direction and leave you with only one or two targets, or tried to ram the u-boat. Last edited by Henri II; 05-03-07 at 06:12 AM.

05-03-07, 11:06 AM	#9
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Instead of asking "what would a real kaleun do?", ask yourself "if I was in this 'iron coffin' what would I really do?" Pretty much the same thing, but if you try to put yourself there and think of your crew and (I know, we're not supposed to be cowards, but...) your own life, then you will be thinking of how to get the best shot and then escape. Remember, once you're dead you're not going to be sinking many more of those fat merchants! __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

05-03-07, 05:53 AM	#3
wireman Sparky Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 155 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	Most u-boat commanders didn't want those pesky 4.7 inch holes in their pressure hulls. That's why they went for option one.

05-03-07, 05:56 AM	#4
rb4door Machinist's Mate Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: St Naz Posts: 129 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I havnt studied / read enough U boat tactics to comment historically, however correct me if I am wrong, their primary objective was to put a strangle-hold on supplies to GB, so I would imagine a real U boat would want to get in, and sink as many supply ships as possible. As much as I enjoy sinking an escort, they still complete their objective if I do, which is to lure (or chase) you away from sinking the supply ships. I try and remember its a waste of an eel every time I fire at an escort , especially when I am intercepting a convoy. I'd go with your initial plan of attack - shadow the convoy, call it in to BdU so they can direct other U boats to also intercept. Get infront of it, await nightfall - then sneak in past the escorts, and sink them all Good luck, good hunting

05-03-07, 07:43 AM	#7
Canovaro Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,062 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	I don't know what realism level you alre playing and which mod you are using, but with GWX and 100% realism, forget about option 2 and go for option 1 still with fear in your heart, or forget about the convoy altogether.

05-03-07, 09:08 AM	#8
CaptainAsh Machinist's Mate Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 128 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	with such escort I don t think they would have try to get to close range. Side shoot at 1500-2000 metters

05-03-07, 11:26 AM	#10
fatty The Old Man Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 1,448 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	In real-life escorts were not so stupid as to wander off alone. Destroying a u-boat is a bonus but the survival of the convoy is of utmost importance. They would either come after you in force (unlikely, given the threat of diversions through wolfpack tactics) or not come at all.

05-04-07, 03:53 PM	#12
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	the only times i have managed to take out an escort... i was stalking a convoy at night and the escort broke off to the side of the convoy while zig zagging, he went out a few KMs and then returned to the convoy in a straight line. as he was travelling in this straight line, i fired a salvo of 2 steamers at him.. they both hit just below the command deck and resulted in an impressive explosion. I repeated this tactic to kill the two remaining escorts, but it took me about 3 or 4 days worth of stalking and repositioning, it consumed a lot of fuel, and cost me 6 torpedoes that could have been better used against the tankers. the second time was fairly recently, i ran across a huge convoy escorted by only 2 corvettes. i ignored the escorts and got past them undetected and managed to sink a whale factory ship, and a large tanker. i damaged a medium cargo ship, dove deep and let the convoy pass overhead. both corvettes responded and depth charged overhead for a whie then left. i surfeced some time later to finish off the straggling and damaged medium cargo ship with my deck gun. Several rounds into the beating one of the corvettes was returning. i turned my deck gun on the flower corvette and estimated the range to be about 8,000 meters through the UZO and sent 4 shells after him. i watched through the UZO and 3 shells fell short, the 4th shell landed right on his gun and blew it off. i crashed down to 100 meters and let the flower corvette pound the sea for a few minutes, when he was headed away i blew the ballast and surfaced abotu 2500 meters astern of him and finished him off with the deck gun with surprising ease. i can assure you though, regardless of the year of the war (especailly late in the war when radar is capable of picking up a raised periscope) it is virtually impossible to take out a dedicated escort when playing with any kind of respectable realism.

05-04-07, 05:45 PM	#13
Spytrx Medic Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Cornwall, UK Posts: 167 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I would take on a escort if the game didn't have that stupid bug that even if you shoot a DD's arse off it still steams at you with 35 knts... But to be frank - I go for it anyway (in R/L that is), because one lost warship is harder to replace than 10 merchants Especially when I am out in the Atlantic - the thought behind it is simple - I take out an escort, another wolf might take out one more and quickly the rest of my brethren closer to home can take on the whole convoy without fear

05-04-07, 08:48 PM	#14
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Shadow the convoy until dark. Then move in for a night surface attack. Under callm sea's, (perfect sonar conditions), submerging should be avoided if possible. However if destroyer Bow angle is 0, with a big frothy white beard, its time to pull the plug and head for the cellar.

05-05-07, 12:54 AM	#15
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	Get around in front and go for the merchies. I avoid taking donw escorts unless there is no choice and prefer to get the job done on the merchies and escape and evade afterwards.