The Road to America

Skybird · 05-02-07, 09:54 AM

This is on the recent changes of German politics towards America. It supports my impression that the German government already focusses on redefining American-German relations in the dawning post-Bush era. No matter if you agree or not, it adds an interesting view on the chancellorship of Angela Merkel to the discussion.http://www.spiegel.de/international/...480524,00.html

05-02-07, 09:44 PM

This arcticle was obviously written for internal German consumption only, to make this woman look half way descent. The US doesn't give a damn what the German gov't or the German people have to say. The very thought that Germany is of parity with the US only shows the mindset that plunged the world into war twice in the 20th century. You folks should just recognize the fact that your nation is second tier. Your county's position on all things international should be your guide.

Germany
Hitler spooked them so bad they are afraid to have a Government. Germany is to politics what reformed alcoholics are to drinking - preachy and sanctimonious, but underneath you know they’re jonesing for another little jolt of the hard stuff, which is why they occasionally pass laws banning free speech and stuff. They probably have a President or something like that. Germans make the best creepy evil masterminds, and other vilians.

Tchocky · 05-02-07, 09:49 PM

Yeah, that mindset is much better....

....
........

05-02-07, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Yeah, that mindset is much better....

....
........

I knew you'd be here soon Tchocky, my friend. It's the truth nothing more.

Tchocky · 05-02-07, 10:07 PM

Uh huh.

You're arguing that "we're better than you" is a healthier mindset?

Onkel Neal · 05-02-07, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waste gate

The US doesn't give a damn what the German gov't or the German people have to say.

Yeah, you don't speak for all of us.

05-02-07, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Uh huh.

You're arguing that "we're better than you" is a healthier mindset?

I'm not making that argument. Its unfortunate that you see it that way. My argument is that the arcticle was for internal German consumption. Everything after that is supporting that satement.

PS FYI I am majoritatively German in heritage. My immediate family was bombed during WWII in the town of Kassel.

Tchocky · 05-02-07, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waste gate

I'm not making that argument. Its unfortunate that you see it that way.

Must have misread you then.

Quote:

The very thought that Germany is of parity with the US only shows the mindset that plunged the world into war twice in the 20th century. You folks should just recognize the fact that your nation is second tier.

05-02-07, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Quote:

Originally Posted by waste gate

I'm not making that argument. Its unfortunate that you see it that way.

Must have misread you then.

Quote:

The very thought that Germany is of parity with the US only shows the mindset that plunged the world into war twice in the 20th century. You folks should just recognize the fact that your nation is second tier.

If it makes you feel better Ireland is third tier.:rotfl: :rotfl:

05-02-07, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Quote:

Originally Posted by waste gate

The US doesn't give a damn what the German gov't or the German people have to say.

Yeah, you don't speak for all of us.

I thought that was obvious. All posts are based on opinion, are they not? Unlike some countries (Germany, as example) that is still allowed in the US.

EDIT: The internal consumption is to show that when US missles arrive on German soil it's because the German gov't negotiated it. It gives the German gov't cover as to how effective they were in making the US listen to their opinion. After all the US listens to Germany\.

EDIT 2: I'm very cinical when it comes to gov't. No matter which gov't it is.

AntEater · 05-03-07, 06:35 AM

I'm afraid the waste gate is right.
The article is wishful thinking.
The article is a english version of a german editorial which I don't agree to.
The "transatlantic faction" (to which Merkel does not defintily belong, but which is strong in her party) is harboring the same illusions regarding the US than the brits do.
That the US can be somehow controlled or prodded into the proper direction by "lesser" powers. Not even the brits could do that, in Iraq... And the brits do have nuclear weapons and all the big boy's toys the germans dont have.
IMHO it is a mistake to seek to have a transatlantic alliance as close as in the cold war days. The US have other problems than Europe. The only thing the US has done sofar was trying to start the cold war again and generally using every opportunity to sabotage the EU by their east european proxies like Poland.
The US doesnt need Europe right now and has no interest here except eliminating a potential rival. That is fine and the US as a superpower in decline has every right to do so, but we should not be so stupid as to help them.
But SPIEGEL online definitely sounds nowadays like it has been bought by Rupert Murdoch. I am not sure about the printed version of Spiegel (which used to be quite left wing) but the online version is sadly in the hands of transatlantic imbeciles like Christian Malzahn an such.

The Avon Lady · 05-03-07, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntEater

But SPIEGEL online definitely sounds nowadays like it has been bought by Rupert Murdoch.

You didn't have this in mind, did you? :hmm:

Both opinions expressed here are very sad indeed. I think the times will come when both the US and Europe will realize how much they will need each other. Those will not be good times. Who will need who first? It's irrelevant but it will happen.

Winston Churchill understood this.

AntEater · 05-03-07, 10:20 AM

Strange thing is, while Spiegel and other transatlantics are quick to bash "antiamericanism", their image of the US is almost as distorted.
The "antiamericans" often see the US as the root of all evil.
The transatlantic faction sees the US as some kind of benevolent spirit, you only have to be nice to it and you will be showered with care packages, marshall plans and nice weapons...:rotfl:

The US is just a nation like everyone else (ok, a tad bit larger

), guided by self-interest and internal politics. If it is seen to be in the interest of the US government to be helpful, they will, if it is not, they won't. There is no benevolency here, otherwise the US wouldnt have become so powerful...

Sailor Steve · 05-03-07, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waste gate

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Quote:

Originally Posted by waste gate

The US doesn't give a damn what the German gov't or the German people have to say.

Yeah, you don't speak for all of us.

I thought that was obvious. All posts are based on opinion, are they not? Unlike some countries (Germany, as example) that is still allowed in the US.

It's not obvious when you say "The US...". That implies you ARE trying to speak for all of us.

dean_acheson · 05-03-07, 11:51 AM

[quote=AntEater] The only thing the US has done sofar was trying to start the cold war again and generally using every opportunity to sabotage the EU by their east european proxies like Poland.
The US doesnt need Europe right now and has no interest here except eliminating a potential rival. That is fine and the US as a superpower in decline has every right to do so, but we should not be so stupid as to help them.
[quote]

I'm very sorry if this is your opinion, or if it is shared by a majority in old Europe. If so, it is a very bad omen for co-operation between the republican west and the remaining dictatorships of the world.

If Europe thinks that we in the States, or the folks at the State Department, or rock-ribbed conservative Republican jingoists like myself consider the fracture of the EU as a good thing, then you are sadly mistaken.

Folks like myself don't always agree with everything that the EU does, or symbolizes, but you will find that we spend a hell of a lot less time critizing the EU than Europe does in criticizing the United States.

A unified, liberal, republican EU is in the interest of the United States, every serious policymaker in the United States from Harry Truman and Dean Acheson to the present day would agree with that. However, some of my ilk are not as supportive of a superstate run by beaucrats interested in aggrandizing their own power outside of a representative elective process.

I find, calling Poland a 'east european proxy' highly offensive. Here is a country that has spent centuries fighting and dying to be independent, and subject to the high power politics of neighbors that today claim to act at such a higher moral standard than the United States. I hope that all the Poles that died fighting for the allied powers in World War II for a free Poland, only to have their country forced into submission by the evil tyranny of the Soviet Union are somehow cursing such a sentiment.

05-02-07, 09:54 AM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,620 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	The Road to America This is on the recent changes of German politics towards America. It supports my impression that the German government already focusses on redefining American-German relations in the dawning post-Bush era. No matter if you agree or not, it adds an interesting view on the chancellorship of Angela Merkel to the discussion.http://www.spiegel.de/international/...480524,00.html __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-02-07, 09:49 PM	#3
Tchocky Navy Seal Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5,874 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Yeah, that mindset is much better.... .... ........ __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

05-02-07, 10:07 PM	#5
Tchocky Navy Seal Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5,874 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Uh huh. You're arguing that "we're better than you" is a healthier mindset? __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

05-03-07, 06:35 AM	#11
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I'm afraid the waste gate is right. The article is wishful thinking. The article is a english version of a german editorial which I don't agree to. The "transatlantic faction" (to which Merkel does not defintily belong, but which is strong in her party) is harboring the same illusions regarding the US than the brits do. That the US can be somehow controlled or prodded into the proper direction by "lesser" powers. Not even the brits could do that, in Iraq... And the brits do have nuclear weapons and all the big boy's toys the germans dont have. IMHO it is a mistake to seek to have a transatlantic alliance as close as in the cold war days. The US have other problems than Europe. The only thing the US has done sofar was trying to start the cold war again and generally using every opportunity to sabotage the EU by their east european proxies like Poland. The US doesnt need Europe right now and has no interest here except eliminating a potential rival. That is fine and the US as a superpower in decline has every right to do so, but we should not be so stupid as to help them. But SPIEGEL online definitely sounds nowadays like it has been bought by Rupert Murdoch. I am not sure about the printed version of Spiegel (which used to be quite left wing) but the online version is sadly in the hands of transatlantic imbeciles like Christian Malzahn an such. __________________

05-03-07, 10:20 AM	#13
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Strange thing is, while Spiegel and other transatlantics are quick to bash "antiamericanism", their image of the US is almost as distorted. The "antiamericans" often see the US as the root of all evil. The transatlantic faction sees the US as some kind of benevolent spirit, you only have to be nice to it and you will be showered with care packages, marshall plans and nice weapons...:rotfl: The US is just a nation like everyone else (ok, a tad bit larger), guided by self-interest and internal politics. If it is seen to be in the interest of the US government to be helpful, they will, if it is not, they won't. There is no benevolency here, otherwise the US wouldnt have become so powerful... __________________

05-02-07, 09:44 PM	#2
waste gate Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	This arcticle was obviously written for internal German consumption only, to make this woman look half way descent. The US doesn't give a damn what the German gov't or the German people have to say. The very thought that Germany is of parity with the US only shows the mindset that plunged the world into war twice in the 20th century. You folks should just recognize the fact that your nation is second tier. Your county's position on all things international should be your guide. *Germany* Hitler spooked them so bad they are afraid to have a Government. Germany is to politics what reformed alcoholics are to drinking - preachy and sanctimonious, but underneath you know they’re jonesing for another little jolt of the hard stuff, which is why they occasionally pass laws banning free speech and stuff. They probably have a President or something like that. Germans make the best creepy evil masterminds, and other vilians.

05-03-07, 11:51 AM	#15
dean_acheson Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Midwest - USA Posts: 1,057 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	[quote=AntEater] The only thing the US has done sofar was trying to start the cold war again and generally using every opportunity to sabotage the EU by their east european proxies like Poland. The US doesnt need Europe right now and has no interest here except eliminating a potential rival. That is fine and the US as a superpower in decline has every right to do so, but we should not be so stupid as to help them. [quote] I'm very sorry if this is your opinion, or if it is shared by a majority in old Europe. If so, it is a very bad omen for co-operation between the republican west and the remaining dictatorships of the world. If Europe thinks that we in the States, or the folks at the State Department, or rock-ribbed conservative Republican jingoists like myself consider the fracture of the EU as a good thing, then you are sadly mistaken. Folks like myself don't always agree with everything that the EU does, or symbolizes, but you will find that we spend a hell of a lot less time critizing the EU than Europe does in criticizing the United States. A unified, liberal, republican EU is in the interest of the United States, every serious policymaker in the United States from Harry Truman and Dean Acheson to the present day would agree with that. However, some of my ilk are not as supportive of a superstate run by beaucrats interested in aggrandizing their own power outside of a representative elective process. I find, calling Poland a 'east european proxy' highly offensive. Here is a country that has spent centuries fighting and dying to be independent, and subject to the high power politics of neighbors that today claim to act at such a higher moral standard than the United States. I hope that all the Poles that died fighting for the allied powers in World War II for a free Poland, only to have their country forced into submission by the evil tyranny of the Soviet Union are somehow cursing such a sentiment.