So will re-sending speed data also re-send bearing data?

nattydread · 04-23-07, 02:59 AM

Its been rumored but Im not sure if its been confirmed. Will unlocking the target, moving my scope to aim at various parts of the ship and re-sending speed data also send the new bearing also?

As said many times before, not being able to yell bearing info to the TDC operator or not having the TDC reference periscope bearing for TDC data really makes aiming torps at portions of the ship more complicated and inaccurate then it ought to be.

My understanding that one could independently change each bit of TDC data as it ran/tracked a solution. Not having a separate "bearing" capture function is really handi-capping advance skipper fire control. Granted this function would likly have to be seperate from the TDC. Maybe a hot-key or tool-bar option.

Torpex752 · 04-23-07, 05:42 AM

I agree we need both, a means to observe and check relative bearings and a means to input bearings. SH1 had this feature using the spacebar.

Frank

Pappnese · 04-23-07, 06:21 AM

Pressing the red button on the stadimeter "page" sends new bearing, there is no need to take a new height. The TDC then updates on the bearing only; range, speed and AOB stays the same.

Just tried it in a test mission

WernerSobe · 04-23-07, 06:48 AM

the answer is, it depends whether you use position keeper or the scope for bearing update.

When you have the position keeper deactivated. Your bearing is automaticly updated by your scope direction in real time. The moment you activate the position keeper, it will first disconnect the scope from bearing update and calculate the latest known bearing further based on firing solution. Then it doesnt matter where you aim at, as long your position keeper is activated the torpedos will go for the interception point given by position keeper not the scope.

The problem you have is not about updating bearing. You just use the position keeper way to often. Actualy you dont need to use the position keeper at all when you go for target visualy. Position Keeper is just a nice tool to "predict" bearing based on firing solution when you cannot, or dont want to update bearing with the scope. For visual firing solution its rather a hindrance then help, specialy when you go for special parts because PK ignores bearing given by the scope.

Try this: Forget the position keeper. Create a firing solution. Unlock the target and aim for a special part just as you did in SH3 and see what happens.

Scoochy · 04-23-07, 07:04 AM

I don't use the PK at all and I have to update my bearing by pressing the "Send to TDC" button on the stadimeter. If I don't, or try anything else but that button, all my torps head right back to the last bearing I had.

WernerSobe · 04-23-07, 07:14 AM

youre right ive just tested it. It does not update bearing on the run from the scope. Which is definetely a bug because historicaly TDC was connected tot he scope and was provided with bearing from the scope in real time.

That might explain the chronometer issue. Maybe its not the chronometer broken but the scope. Of course you will not get any speed calculation when you have no bearing change.

ps.: and yes it does update bearing by resending speed

nattydread · 04-24-07, 01:34 AM

I messed around last night in port and did a ghost solution (no ship, just data) and updating speed didnt update the bearing. It changes the torp gyro if i change the speed, but thats it. I assume it would apply with an actual ship too.

I'll try the range input with out using the stadimeter and confirm it. Im surprised the torp solution/gyro is updated after turning of the PK...that doesnt make sense to me(I could be wrong), I thought the PK not only showed estimated target data for reference, but was also key for keeping the gyro updated up until launch. I'd think turning off PK would also turn off updates to the torp gyros and locking in a rapidly degarding solution until you inputted new data to overwrite the last solution.

maerean_m · 04-24-07, 02:30 AM

The Position Keeper feature was created because the real sailors only had Manual targeting. Getting the data for the solution (bearing, range, AOB and speed) is time consuming and getting a new set of data can ruin the older set. So they did it once, activated the PK and retracted the periscope as it can be detected by radar. They raised the periscope once a minute to check if the first solution is still ok and updated the components only if needed. If the solution was good after 3 such attempts, the torpedo was good to fire.
The position keeper is reinitialized every time you resend one of the components to the TDC. On manual targeting, sending the range also sends the bearing (as it says in the tooltip of the Send button).

When you use Automatic targeting and Position Keeper, you usualy point the periscope to the center of the ship, activate the PK and use the spread angle to aim the torpedo more at the front or the back of the target. You can see the effect of changing the spread angle in the attack map.
The position keeper is reinitialized every time you turn it off and then back on again.

The spread angle is useful on manual targeting also, since you can change the torpedo's course without altering the solution (and/or the PK) in any way

.

elanaiba · 04-24-07, 02:44 AM

I don't understand where people get the notion that the periscope/TBT whatever was connected to the TDC full time and updated bearing all the time?

All my data seems to point that it was not so. Sure, this was the way things were done in u-boats, thank you very much

we got that right in SH3.

But in US Boats it was different. So surely you'd like to do it "as in real life". After all, you wouldn't want gyro angle-capable torpedoes in British boats, if we ever do them, would you?

If anyone has hard evidence proving that bearing was constantly updated, pease post it here, but so far I have yet to see something like that.

Scoochy · 04-24-07, 02:52 AM

I don't think a constant bearing update is what is in question. People are just wondering which "send to" button updates the bearing.

Torpex752 · 04-24-07, 05:43 AM

The scope was not linked in any way to the TDC, an in SH4 there is no "target bearing imdicator dial". An actual TDC generated a solution based off of what we input; speed-range-AOB...thats it. You "match" generated bearing from TDC with actual bearings on an observation, this "checks" the solution. The only indication that we get is torpedo gyro angle, and quite frankly thats not useful except to shoot when gyros are or close to zero for max accuracy.

Frank

nattydread · 04-24-07, 05:45 AM

Naw, im not saying we should be feeding constant bearing data to the TDC, just that we should be able to send new bearing data at any time. Weither that should be a physical TDC feature or a key function is up for debate, but the "bearing" option is much needed.

Also, I should mention that this is for manual targeting when one wants to aim a specific parts of the ship.

As said above, the PK just takes a solution determined by input data and provides a running second by second update to the gyros based on that solution and ownship movement. The ability to change the bearing on the fly allows for the data and solution to remain the same except for the small change in bearing that allows for slight gyro adjusments so we can aim at specific parts of the target. Its like adding a spread angle to the original solution sort of, but much more accurate.

I'll settle for re-submitting the range as a work around provided it doesnt alter the actual range data for the original solution.

elanaiba · 04-24-07, 07:00 AM

You send the bearing and range together from the scope and TBT. So you do change the range currently determined by the PK.

Frankly, I don't think that's a problem.

As for the bearing indication, I beg to differ:

joea · 04-24-07, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WernerSobe

youre right ive just tested it. It does not update bearing on the run from the scope. Which is definetely a bug because historicaly TDC was connected tot he scope and was provided with bearing from the scope in real time.

Correct for u-boats, not correct for US subs, the scope and TBt were not contected so the guy on the scope had to call out "mark" and the crew would read the bearing and then set the TDc manually.

WernerSobe · 04-24-07, 01:57 PM

You can also aim for special parts using spread. Lets say you want to hit a target at about first mast which is counting 6 small marks (from center while locked in high zoom) to the right. So basicly you can set up spread to 1,25° to the right and the torpedoe should hit about the mast assuming the solution is not to much flawed.

from manual:

zoomed small marks are 0,25° large marks 1°
in wide view small marks are 1° large marks 4°

04-23-07, 02:59 AM	#1
nattydread Captain Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 498 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	So will re-sending speed data also re-send bearing data? Its been rumored but Im not sure if its been confirmed. Will unlocking the target, moving my scope to aim at various parts of the ship and re-sending speed data also send the new bearing also? As said many times before, not being able to yell bearing info to the TDC operator or not having the TDC reference periscope bearing for TDC data really makes aiming torps at portions of the ship more complicated and inaccurate then it ought to be. My understanding that one could independently change each bit of TDC data as it ran/tracked a solution. Not having a separate "bearing" capture function is really handi-capping advance skipper fire control. Granted this function would likly have to be seperate from the TDC. Maybe a hot-key or tool-bar option.

04-23-07, 07:04 AM	#5
Scoochy Sparky Join Date: May 2005 Location: San diego Ca. Posts: 150 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	I don't use the PK at all and I have to update my bearing by pressing the "Send to TDC" button on the stadimeter. If I don't, or try anything else but that button, all my torps head right back to the last bearing I had. __________________ SH5 Photobucket Slideshow

04-24-07, 02:30 AM	#8
maerean_m Captain Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Bucharest, Romania Posts: 529 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The Position Keeper feature was created because the real sailors only had Manual targeting. Getting the data for the solution (bearing, range, AOB and speed) is time consuming and getting a new set of data can ruin the older set. So they did it once, activated the PK and retracted the periscope as it can be detected by radar. They raised the periscope once a minute to check if the first solution is still ok and updated the components only if needed. If the solution was good after 3 such attempts, the torpedo was good to fire. The position keeper is reinitialized every time you resend one of the components to the TDC. On manual targeting, sending the range also sends the bearing (as it says in the tooltip of the Send button). When you use Automatic targeting and Position Keeper, you usualy point the periscope to the center of the ship, activate the PK and use the spread angle to aim the torpedo more at the front or the back of the target. You can see the effect of changing the spread angle in the attack map. The position keeper is reinitialized every time you turn it off and then back on again. The spread angle is useful on manual targeting also, since you can change the torpedo's course without altering the solution (and/or the PK) in any way . __________________ Kilroy was here Last edited by maerean_m; 04-24-07 at 02:53 AM.

04-24-07, 02:52 AM	#10
Scoochy Sparky Join Date: May 2005 Location: San diego Ca. Posts: 150 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	I don't think a constant bearing update is what is in question. People are just wondering which "send to" button updates the bearing. __________________ SH5 Photobucket Slideshow

04-23-07, 05:42 AM	#2
Torpex752 Lieutenant Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep River, CT Posts: 255 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	I agree we need both, a means to observe and check relative bearings and a means to input bearings. SH1 had this feature using the spacebar. Frank

04-23-07, 06:21 AM	#3
Pappnese Nub Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	Pressing the red button on the stadimeter "page" sends new bearing, there is no need to take a new height. The TDC then updates on the bearing only; range, speed and AOB stays the same. Just tried it in a test mission

04-23-07, 06:48 AM	#4
WernerSobe Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 625 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	the answer is, it depends whether you use position keeper or the scope for bearing update. When you have the position keeper deactivated. Your bearing is automaticly updated by your scope direction in real time. The moment you activate the position keeper, it will first disconnect the scope from bearing update and calculate the latest known bearing further based on firing solution. Then it doesnt matter where you aim at, as long your position keeper is activated the torpedos will go for the interception point given by position keeper not the scope. The problem you have is not about updating bearing. You just use the position keeper way to often. Actualy you dont need to use the position keeper at all when you go for target visualy. Position Keeper is just a nice tool to "predict" bearing based on firing solution when you cannot, or dont want to update bearing with the scope. For visual firing solution its rather a hindrance then help, specialy when you go for special parts because PK ignores bearing given by the scope. Try this: Forget the position keeper. Create a firing solution. Unlock the target and aim for a special part just as you did in SH3 and see what happens.

04-23-07, 07:14 AM	#6
WernerSobe Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 625 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	youre right ive just tested it. It does not update bearing on the run from the scope. Which is definetely a bug because historicaly TDC was connected tot he scope and was provided with bearing from the scope in real time. That might explain the chronometer issue. Maybe its not the chronometer broken but the scope. Of course you will not get any speed calculation when you have no bearing change. ps.: and yes it does update bearing by resending speed

04-24-07, 01:34 AM	#7
nattydread Captain Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 498 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I messed around last night in port and did a ghost solution (no ship, just data) and updating speed didnt update the bearing. It changes the torp gyro if i change the speed, but thats it. I assume it would apply with an actual ship too. I'll try the range input with out using the stadimeter and confirm it. Im surprised the torp solution/gyro is updated after turning of the PK...that doesnt make sense to me(I could be wrong), I thought the PK not only showed estimated target data for reference, but was also key for keeping the gyro updated up until launch. I'd think turning off PK would also turn off updates to the torp gyros and locking in a rapidly degarding solution until you inputted new data to overwrite the last solution.

04-24-07, 02:44 AM	#9
elanaiba Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bucharest, Romania Posts: 1,058 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 3	I don't understand where people get the notion that the periscope/TBT whatever was connected to the TDC full time and updated bearing all the time? All my data seems to point that it was not so. Sure, this was the way things were done in u-boats, thank you very much we got that right in SH3. But in US Boats it was different. So surely you'd like to do it "as in real life". After all, you wouldn't want gyro angle-capable torpedoes in British boats, if we ever do them, would you? If anyone has hard evidence proving that bearing was constantly updated, pease post it here, but so far I have yet to see something like that.

04-24-07, 05:43 AM	#11
Torpex752 Lieutenant Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep River, CT Posts: 255 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	The scope was not linked in any way to the TDC, an in SH4 there is no "target bearing imdicator dial". An actual TDC generated a solution based off of what we input; speed-range-AOB...thats it. You "match" generated bearing from TDC with actual bearings on an observation, this "checks" the solution. The only indication that we get is torpedo gyro angle, and quite frankly thats not useful except to shoot when gyros are or close to zero for max accuracy. Frank

04-24-07, 05:45 AM	#12
nattydread Captain Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 498 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Naw, im not saying we should be feeding constant bearing data to the TDC, just that we should be able to send new bearing data at any time. Weither that should be a physical TDC feature or a key function is up for debate, but the "bearing" option is much needed. Also, I should mention that this is for manual targeting when one wants to aim a specific parts of the ship. As said above, the PK just takes a solution determined by input data and provides a running second by second update to the gyros based on that solution and ownship movement. The ability to change the bearing on the fly allows for the data and solution to remain the same except for the small change in bearing that allows for slight gyro adjusments so we can aim at specific parts of the target. Its like adding a spread angle to the original solution sort of, but much more accurate. I'll settle for re-submitting the range as a work around provided it doesnt alter the actual range data for the original solution.

04-24-07, 07:00 AM	#13
elanaiba Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bucharest, Romania Posts: 1,058 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 3	You send the bearing and range together from the scope and TBT. So you do change the range currently determined by the PK. Frankly, I don't think that's a problem. As for the bearing indication, I beg to differ:

04-24-07, 01:57 PM	#15
WernerSobe Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 625 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	You can also aim for special parts using spread. Lets say you want to hit a target at about first mast which is counting 6 small marks (from center while locked in high zoom) to the right. So basicly you can set up spread to 1,25° to the right and the torpedoe should hit about the mast assuming the solution is not to much flawed. from manual: zoomed small marks are 0,25° large marks 1° in wide view small marks are 1° large marks 4°