Strange, non-aggressive AI in a Task Force??

DragonRR1 · 04-22-07, 04:14 PM

I've done about 6 or 7 patrols with patch 1.2. Generally I've quite enjoyed them.. of course there's a but!

I've just done a patrol and came across a huge task force, the Yamoto, at least 4 huge battleships, a number of smaller destroyers, 2 carriers and the odd freighter.

I was ahead of the group so I positioned myself for a torpedo run dropped to 200ft and waited. Nervously I rose to periscope depth and launched all my torpedos at the Yamoto and 2 of the other large battleships. 4 hits. I also launched all my aft torpedoes at 2 targets.. Anyway.. to save boring you all to death I ended up with zero torpedos, 1 sunk destroyer, 2 huge battleships or whatever they were listing badly and a holed Yamoto....

Knowing it would be suicide I surfaced to see what would happen. Well not a lot really! I spent nearly all my deck gun ammo on the Yamoto (which didn't sink). Only one ship actually fired at me which was a carrier! Even then there were only 2 shots.

What one earth was going on? I've read a couple of posts suggesting that this kind of thing did happen in the war but I should have had swiss cheese made out of me within nano seconds. In the end I just gave up in disgust. I've had more challenges taking on a single armed freighter on the surface... Anyone else experienced this?

tater · 04-22-07, 04:40 PM

Yeah, it happened to me as well. the big ships don't seem to shoot at all as far as I can tell. CVs are so absurdly easy to sink I've never had any live to have me try to shell them.

Scoochy · 04-22-07, 04:43 PM

Tons of talk about being able to simply surface and hang out. I have actually sustained more damage from a/c than from any warship.

Warships don't shoot much, and when they do, they don't hit much.

Prof · 04-22-07, 05:07 PM

This is all probably to do with the level of crew experience in the warships. I tried surfacing on the Mogami in the Torpedo School lesson and the results were disappointing for the Japanese

Looked like the gunners were all drunk!

I then edited the MIS file and gave the Mogami an 'elite' crew. This time when I surfaced the gunnery was deadly accurate and I didn't last very long!

There is definitely something wrong, but it should be a fairly easy fix...though changing the crew skill level of every randomly generated ship in the campaign might not be so easy!

DragonRR1 · 04-22-07, 05:11 PM

Prof... Is the crew type set per task force, per ship or is there the ability to do both?

The entire task force basically ignored me as a wandered between them...

Prof · 04-22-07, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DragonRR1

Prof... Is the crew type set per task force, per ship or is there the ability to do both?

The entire task force basically ignored me as a wandered between them...

I've just checked the Japanese 1941 campaign layers and the skill level is set per ship. In the default campaign, however, all warships in a task force have the same skill level. Interestingly, all ships in task forces are either veteran (second best) or elite (best). Any destroyers assigned to guard a merchant convoy (not a troop convoy) are either poor or novice (the lowest two!). I guess they send the duffers on merchie escort

What difficulty rating were you on? It may be that the base-level crew skill is modified by the difficulty level you set at the beginning of a career, so if you played on 'easy' then maybe 'elite' becomes more like 'novice'. Just a possibility.

DragonRR1 · 04-22-07, 05:40 PM

I was on the hardest setting but I then adjust to have external cameras on, unlimited fuel and no manual firing of torps.

The thing is that in the patrol before this I had loosed all my torps at a merchant convoy destroying most merchants but leaving behind the destroyers (I escaped unscathed at 1/3rd). I surface attacked a single merchant on the return journey in the dead of night and it nearly crippled the sub. I limped back to base with holes all over the place!

DragonRR1 · 04-23-07, 12:18 PM

Prof.. Do you think this is a fix a modder could do or do you think it is a hard coded problem?

tater · 04-23-07, 12:21 PM

The campaign files can (and are) being modified. Some of the issues seem to be hard coded, others can possibly be addressed via mods to sensors, etc.

tater

SteamWake · 04-23-07, 01:45 PM

There was a trick in SH3 where you could positon yourself between ships and end up having them shoot one another.

Also if you are too close to a ship their big guns cannot be trained low enough.

I havent seen this behaviour personally. As a matter of fact I ran accross a lone merchant which I decided to try to take out with deck gun only to save torps.

I was a bit dismayed when they started shooting back. On their third round they landed a shell nearly amidship and knocked half my crew silly and did some minor damage.

At great risk we decided to dive and repair and get the heck outa there.

DragonRR1 · 04-23-07, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

There was a trick in SH3 where you could positon yourself between ships and end up having them shoot one another.

Also if you are too close to a ship their big guns cannot be trained low enough.

I havent seen this behaviour personally. As a matter of fact I ran accross a lone merchant which I decided to try to take out with deck gun only to save torps.

I was a bit dismayed when they started shooting back. On their third round they landed a shell nearly amidship and knocked half my crew silly and did some minor damage.

At great risk we decided to dive and repair and get the heck outa there.

After finding out that I wasn't being shot at I wandered around the entire task force to see whether they thought I was too close. Other than jinking and rotating their guns from time to time they did nothing. I spent at least 4 game hours shooting from the deck gun and just looking at the scenery. My crew were very bored and spent most of the time sunbathing

Out of interest - there were two carriers in the task force. Both had small fires burning on their decks at exactly the same position long before I actually fired a shot at them.

Yes I mentioned a couple of posts up that I experienced a single merchant on the previous patrol do more damage to me than an entire task force!

FAdmiral · 04-23-07, 06:41 PM

I just ran a test of the crew ratings on AI warships. I had a TF consisting
of 1 BB,1-CA,2-CL,3-DD. When they all were set to Vet, I was sunk in less
than 2 minutes (distance 4000). Then I set tham all to Poor and I didn't even
take a hit till 6 minutes into the game. And yes, every ship fired at me both
times. I finally rammed the CA and it sunk me. Up until that time, I had a total
of 4 shells hit (11 min). Conclusion: They SHOULD fire at you no matter what
the crew rating is. It only seems to affect their aim.....

JIM

tater · 04-23-07, 06:57 PM

Wonder what effect weather and time of day has on that...

Cause I should have been nuked by the disabled Kongo, and it didn't fire a shot. I was maybe 1000 yards away on the surface. Nothing. It had been in a TF, so it was likely set to "vet." The sea state, however was a little rough. Not a storm, but pretty choppy such that moving 1/3 back, I was washed below a few times.

DragonRR1 · 04-23-07, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAdmiral

I just ran a test of the crew ratings on AI warships. I had a TF consisting
of 1 BB,1-CA,2-CL,3-DD. When they all were set to Vet, I was sunk in less
than 2 minutes (distance 4000). Then I set tham all to Poor and I didn't even
take a hit till 6 minutes into the game. And yes, every ship fired at me both
times. I finally rammed the CA and it sunk me. Up until that time, I had a total
of 4 shells hit (11 min). Conclusion: They SHOULD fire at you no matter what
the crew rating is. It only seems to affect their aim.....

JIM

I don't doubt what you've said. I should, perhaps, point out that this is the campaign not a single mission.. Tater and Scoochy seemed to have experienced a similar issue to mine. Prof suggested above that TFs in the campaign are all either veteran or elite so not only should they fire, they should also hit!

I wonder if I had just have set the game up as HARD without adjusting it if the same thing would have happened?

I can assure you that I spotted no firing on me of any description except for the single carrier that fired a couple of pot shots. The TF was absolutely huge and even after they jinked apart there wasn't a huge gap between any ship. Maybe the AI just couldn't find a "safe" firing solution... Maybe the AI allows too much margin for error in checking for friendly fire...?

I may be jumping to the wrong conclusions but now I think about it:

A single Merchant always seems to fire at the sub - nice open sea just me and the ship and nothing else.
Surface the sub in a convoy - destroyers don't seem to fire much on you if at all... But as you sink more and more freighters they start firing (I've seen this at least once).
Approach a convoy surfaced... The destroyers always come towards you and fire (in my experience)..

It all seems to add up.. but maybe I'm completely up the wrong tree.

DragonRR1 · 04-23-07, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Wonder what effect weather and time of day has on that...

Cause I should have been nuked by the disabled Kongo, and it didn't fire a shot. I was maybe 1000 yards away on the surface. Nothing. It had been in a TF, so it was likely set to "vet." The sea state, however was a little rough. Not a storm, but pretty choppy such that moving 1/3 back, I was washed below a few times.

The sea was pretty rough in my case too. I remember that the deck gun was submerged frequently as I was using it..

04-22-07, 04:14 PM	#1
DragonRR1 Officer Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: UK Posts: 246 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Strange, non-aggressive AI in a Task Force?? I've done about 6 or 7 patrols with patch 1.2. Generally I've quite enjoyed them.. of course there's a but! I've just done a patrol and came across a huge task force, the Yamoto, at least 4 huge battleships, a number of smaller destroyers, 2 carriers and the odd freighter. I was ahead of the group so I positioned myself for a torpedo run dropped to 200ft and waited. Nervously I rose to periscope depth and launched all my torpedos at the Yamoto and 2 of the other large battleships. 4 hits. I also launched all my aft torpedoes at 2 targets.. Anyway.. to save boring you all to death I ended up with zero torpedos, 1 sunk destroyer, 2 huge battleships or whatever they were listing badly and a holed Yamoto.... Knowing it would be suicide I surfaced to see what would happen. Well not a lot really! I spent nearly all my deck gun ammo on the Yamoto (which didn't sink). Only one ship actually fired at me which was a carrier! Even then there were only 2 shots. What one earth was going on? I've read a couple of posts suggesting that this kind of thing did happen in the war but I should have had swiss cheese made out of me within nano seconds. In the end I just gave up in disgust. I've had more challenges taking on a single armed freighter on the surface... Anyone else experienced this?

04-22-07, 04:43 PM	#3
Scoochy Sparky Join Date: May 2005 Location: San diego Ca. Posts: 150 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	Tons of talk about being able to simply surface and hang out. I have actually sustained more damage from a/c than from any warship. Warships don't shoot much, and when they do, they don't hit much. __________________ SH5 Photobucket Slideshow

04-22-07, 05:07 PM	#4
Prof Medic Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	This is all probably to do with the level of crew experience in the warships. I tried surfacing on the Mogami in the Torpedo School lesson and the results were disappointing for the Japanese Looked like the gunners were all drunk! I then edited the MIS file and gave the Mogami an 'elite' crew. This time when I surfaced the gunnery was deadly accurate and I didn't last very long! There is definitely something wrong, but it should be a fairly easy fix...though changing the crew skill level of every randomly generated ship in the campaign might not be so easy! Last edited by Prof; 04-22-07 at 05:18 PM.

04-23-07, 06:41 PM	#12
FAdmiral Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Posts: 1,079 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	I just ran a test of the crew ratings on AI warships. I had a TF consisting of 1 BB,1-CA,2-CL,3-DD. When they all were set to Vet, I was sunk in less than 2 minutes (distance 4000). Then I set tham all to Poor and I didn't even take a hit till 6 minutes into the game. And yes, every ship fired at me both times. I finally rammed the CA and it sunk me. Up until that time, I had a total of 4 shells hit (11 min). Conclusion: They SHOULD fire at you no matter what the crew rating is. It only seems to affect their aim..... JIM __________________ If you\'re not taking losses, you\'re not doing enough. RAdm. Kelly Turner, USN ********************************** www.fairtax.org

04-22-07, 04:40 PM	#2
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Yeah, it happened to me as well. the big ships don't seem to shoot at all as far as I can tell. CVs are so absurdly easy to sink I've never had any live to have me try to shell them.

04-22-07, 05:11 PM	#5
DragonRR1 Officer Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: UK Posts: 246 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Prof... Is the crew type set per task force, per ship or is there the ability to do both? The entire task force basically ignored me as a wandered between them...

04-22-07, 05:40 PM	#7
DragonRR1 Officer Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: UK Posts: 246 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I was on the hardest setting but I then adjust to have external cameras on, unlimited fuel and no manual firing of torps. The thing is that in the patrol before this I had loosed all my torps at a merchant convoy destroying most merchants but leaving behind the destroyers (I escaped unscathed at 1/3rd). I surface attacked a single merchant on the return journey in the dead of night and it nearly crippled the sub. I limped back to base with holes all over the place!

04-23-07, 12:18 PM	#8
DragonRR1 Officer Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: UK Posts: 246 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Prof.. Do you think this is a fix a modder could do or do you think it is a hard coded problem?

04-23-07, 12:21 PM	#9
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	The campaign files can (and are) being modified. Some of the issues seem to be hard coded, others can possibly be addressed via mods to sensors, etc. tater

04-23-07, 01:45 PM	#10
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	There was a trick in SH3 where you could positon yourself between ships and end up having them shoot one another. Also if you are too close to a ship their big guns cannot be trained low enough. I havent seen this behaviour personally. As a matter of fact I ran accross a lone merchant which I decided to try to take out with deck gun only to save torps. I was a bit dismayed when they started shooting back. On their third round they landed a shell nearly amidship and knocked half my crew silly and did some minor damage. At great risk we decided to dive and repair and get the heck outa there.

04-23-07, 06:57 PM	#13
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Wonder what effect weather and time of day has on that... Cause I should have been nuked by the disabled Kongo, and it didn't fire a shot. I was maybe 1000 yards away on the surface. Nothing. It had been in a TF, so it was likely set to "vet." The sea state, however was a little rough. Not a storm, but pretty choppy such that moving 1/3 back, I was washed below a few times.