GWX DD AI is ruining SH3 for me.

sandbag69 · 04-19-07, 02:52 PM

Cant believe what has happened to GWX Escorts AI. For some reason it has been tweaked so far that there is no chance of attacking a convoy even in 1942 before being detected from many miles away.
Infact my bridge lookouts cant even see the Escorts charging at me until their shells start splashing around my boat.
Then the Depth Charges start coming. Exploding right on top of me alamost first time when i am at 150M and silent running. Didnt just happen once, happened everytime.

There is no way that the 1942 Escorts had capabilities like that.

Dont get me wrong I dont want GWX to be super easy but at least make it a bit more realistic.

It was single player mision that I created with the escorts set to competent rather then veteran. Maybe I need to make them to ne novices but I doubt this would make a difference.

poor sailor · 04-19-07, 03:10 PM

Well maybe our tastes are diferents but I found that in GWX very well balanced the level of difficult in game. Much better then the first "The Grey Wolves" mod. I'm now in my WaW patrol in the end of 1943 and the airplanes are real nightmare

as was in that historicaly time and exactly I read in "Iron Coffins" for example. Only I may suggest you to try Rubini's great mod "Stay Alert Crew fix mod" which much improve the sensors in game and also to use a realistic way to escape the DD, some of that is perfect written in GWX manual v.1.03. Also maybe the good solution is to GWX dev team release GWX hardcore version (for experienced players, with longer repair times and more deadlier aircraft...) and other GWX light version (for player who like the much easier game), but there is a lot of work probably for that, the team not have a time for that or don't like that idea.

down and out · 04-19-07, 03:10 PM

Depends on how you approach the convoy and weather conditions
Radar is making an appearance around then too

84 U-boats lost in 1942 (3221 men died and 818 men survived those losses)

http://uboat.net/fates/losses/1942.htm

Spytrx · 04-19-07, 03:37 PM

there is already a thread about this running here.

I think it would be fair to say though that anybody looking for a game that is harder to play and more challenging right from the first Sept 1939 with some fancy sounds and graphics (and the odd cheat) should go for GWX... Otherwise just stick with the vanilla version of the game and add the mods and skins you fancy to it as you go and have a look around if you can find some tweaks for some more realistic settings on the way...

VipertheSniper · 04-19-07, 06:46 PM

Can't say I've had problems thus far, although last time in the Carribean a DD destroyed my port diesel when I was at about 70 meters on the way down to 240 meters in my IXC, some heavy flooding in the aft compartments, had to go on flank and blow ballast to not get sucked down below 274 meters, which I had tested before is the deepest I can go, before the pressure hull starts to lose hull integrity.

One of my worst patrols, 31k only, in the Carribean, October 42 or something, had to limp home on one leg so to say, barely made it with my fuel.

Good thing tho, once below 200 meters I could go on 1/3 ahead, even tho the destroyers were still circling above me. So much for Uber DD's

GWX with Stay alert crew 8km version.

sandbag69 · 04-19-07, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poor sailor

Well maybe our tastes are diferents but I found that in GWX very well balanced the level of difficult in game. Much better then the first "The Grey Wolves" mod. I'm now in my WaW patrol in the end of 1943 and the airplanes are real nightmare

as was in that historicaly time and exactly I read in "Iron Coffins" for example. Only I may suggest you to try Rubini's great mod "Stay Alert Crew fix mod" which much improve the sensors in game and also to use a realistic way to escape the DD, some of that is perfect written in GWX manual v.1.03. Also maybe the good solution is to GWX dev team release GWX hardcore version (for experienced players, with longer repair times and more deadlier aircraft...) and other GWX light version (for player who like the much easier game), but there is a lot of work probably for that, the team not have a time for that or don't like that idea.

Dont get me wrong I love the GWX mod but just think the DD AI is far to accurate in Detecting and attacking me. The DD's drop DC's right on top of me almost every time.

Ducimus · 04-19-07, 09:14 PM

Come on now, its really not that hard.

P_Funk · 04-20-07, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Come on now, its really not that hard.

I agree. Its a huge leap from vanilla but you just need to be very methodical.

Turn your tail or nose to the nearest DD, go ahead flank when they're dropping DCs, cut it and glide on.Turn at no more than 15 degrees since turning harder than that slows you down alot. Dive deep. Like DEEP! Depth makes you more stealthy and it takes the DCs longer to get there.

Just be very afraid. Don't be cocky. The aces of the early war got owned because being cocky was no longer prudent.

On the surface radar will detect you later on. You need to be submerged ahead of time to be able to get into a firing position and even then your firing range needs to be much farther than before.

Adopt, Adapt, and Improve.

Sardaukar67 · 04-20-07, 02:01 AM

Good advice there. I am quite a SHIII newbie myself, old hand with Aces of Deep though. I played vanilla for some time and found it lacking in many aspects, so I installed NYGM mod for now. I got really frustrated first because I thought I had proper evasive tactics..well, I had..just was in too shallow.

It's indeed wise to be very cautious. And dive deep is the answer..plus using of well-timed "sprint and drift" as said above. Or "sprint and glide"...

When you go to flank speed underwater and cut down your electric motor power, you can glide silently for a while..and making course adjustments too. Like said, don't give too much rudder, since you'll slow down too much.
Managed to evade 4 DD "death-star" recently too...which usually kills you when in shallows. And this time I even had damage so couldn't go deeper than 145 m.

When you see heavily escorted TF/Convoy in shallow water..ask yourself: "How much I want to be alive ?" :p Caution is the answer, pick your fights since you can hide but you usually cannot run.

Kpt. Lehmann · 04-20-07, 02:11 AM

Exactly. Stock SH3 got everyone in the habit of charging in and blowing everything sky-high.

With more realistic sensor packages... even early in the war, if you do something bone-headed... nature takes its course.

When merchants begin to arm themselves (IIRC 1941-ish) they OUTGUN YOU!!!

Sometimes, the right thing to do is just let the target go... or leave the area and set up an ambush in low-light conditions.

Now you gotta work for that tonnage.

(If you guys think that early war is tough now... Late war is all about snorkeling and surviving. ASW gear becomes more advanced... and more prolific.)

Sardaukar67 · 04-20-07, 02:48 AM

Even in AOD there was "Wheel of Death", those red spikes coming towards you from all directions on sonar screen...

When you get "Depth Charges in water", go flank briefly and then cut down to 1 knot, trying to maneuver most of the ASW ships wo they are either behind you or in front of you to reduce sonar aspect. Against 1 enemy I can often make it with 2 knots..can turn better and keep him in disadvantageous aspect better. Against multiple ASW ships it's when the "fun" starts, like in real war.

If I recall correctly there were late war Hunter/Killer ASW groups that *always* sunk U-boat after they detected and aquired it. Either they managed to sink/damage it with Hedgehogs/DCs...or if U-boat was just too good in evasion, they just waited it to run out of electrical power and oxygen etc. Only thermal layer and lot of luck could save sub from destruction in that situation..since then Allies knew the underwater ranges and limitations of U-boats. Even if one could evade them underwater, they'd get you on radar when you show your snorkel after running out of "juice".

ASW just got way too good, only XXI had real chances after late 1944.

Maraz · 04-20-07, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandbag69

Cant believe what has happened to GWX Escorts AI. For some reason it has been tweaked so far that there is no chance of attacking a convoy even in 1942 before being detected from many miles away.

Installing Ducimus' AI Sensors mod might solve the problem, stock GWX AI has a maximum view range of 30 Km, that perhaps is a bit too much

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=106956

Maraz

Kpt. Lehmann · 04-20-07, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sardaukar67

ASW just got way too good, only XXI had real chances after late 1944.

... and in real life the XXI only performed two unsuccessful patrols. (One of those was performed by Erich Topp who "bent" the rules to take her out, LOL.)

Also in real life, hunter-killer groups would not end the hunt often for days. There are quite a few accounts of U-boats that had to surface in front of the enemy's guns... because the CO2 levels in the boat became too dangerous.

Also relevant to the simulation... (spoiler ahead) the enemy may not actually have contact with your boat. They will, often repeatedly, DC your last known location and the surrounding area. Perfectly logical IMHO. The same thing also occurred in RL.

joea · 04-20-07, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandbag69

Dont get me wrong I love the GWX mod but just think the DD AI is far to accurate in Detecting and attacking me. The DD's drop DC's right on top of me almost every time.

Sorry that's not my experience. In 1942 they had radar!!! IRL and in the sim. You did not acknowledge that. Also look at my sig, I have managed to survive and done super well for a u-boat in this period of the war. No way I'll get 100,000 tons but still.

Spytrx · 04-20-07, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

... and in real life the XXI only performed two unsuccessful patrols. (One of those was performed by Erich Topp who "bent" the rules to take her out, LOL.)

That is a new one on me - Topp was Chief Designer and responsible for the development of the Type-XXI and commanded the U-3010 which was used as a training boot and never left port, and the U-2513 which was used after the war ended.
The only two patrols carried out by 21 were in the last two weeks of the war by U-2511 under KK Adalbert Schnee and U-3008 Kptlt. Helmut Manseck - both had to break off an attack when the BdU send out the Message "Germany had surrendered" - both Kapains though completed their dummy attack-run in the new boots sucessfully withouth their counterparts even noticing.

The type XXI was so good and advanced (traveling faster underwater than the escorts would do on the surface) that both allies based their future submarine designs on it (since the Russians got more boots their W-Class is mainly a copy of the 21)...

04-19-07, 02:52 PM	#1
sandbag69 Medic Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 167 Downloads: 70 Uploads: 0	GWX DD AI is ruining SH3 for me. Cant believe what has happened to GWX Escorts AI. For some reason it has been tweaked so far that there is no chance of attacking a convoy even in 1942 before being detected from many miles away. Infact my bridge lookouts cant even see the Escorts charging at me until their shells start splashing around my boat. Then the Depth Charges start coming. Exploding right on top of me alamost first time when i am at 150M and silent running. Didnt just happen once, happened everytime. There is no way that the 1942 Escorts had capabilities like that. Dont get me wrong I dont want GWX to be super easy but at least make it a bit more realistic. It was single player mision that I created with the escorts set to competent rather then veteran. Maybe I need to make them to ne novices but I doubt this would make a difference.

04-20-07, 02:11 AM	#10
Kpt. Lehmann GWX Project Director Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 6,996 Downloads: 124 Uploads: 0	Exactly. Stock SH3 got everyone in the habit of charging in and blowing everything sky-high. With more realistic sensor packages... even early in the war, if you do something bone-headed... nature takes its course. When merchants begin to arm themselves (IIRC 1941-ish) they OUTGUN YOU!!! Sometimes, the right thing to do is just let the target go... or leave the area and set up an ambush in low-light conditions. Now you gotta work for that tonnage. (If you guys think that early war is tough now... Late war is all about snorkeling and surviving. ASW gear becomes more advanced... and more prolific.) __________________ www.thegreywolves.com All you need is good men. - Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock

04-19-07, 03:10 PM	#2
poor sailor XO Join Date: May 2006 Location: Serbia Posts: 420 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Well maybe our tastes are diferents but I found that in GWX very well balanced the level of difficult in game. Much better then the first "The Grey Wolves" mod. I'm now in my WaW patrol in the end of 1943 and the airplanes are real nightmare as was in that historicaly time and exactly I read in "Iron Coffins" for example. Only I may suggest you to try Rubini's great mod "Stay Alert Crew fix mod" which much improve the sensors in game and also to use a realistic way to escape the DD, some of that is perfect written in GWX manual v.1.03. Also maybe the good solution is to GWX dev team release GWX hardcore version (for experienced players, with longer repair times and more deadlier aircraft...) and other GWX light version (for player who like the much easier game), but there is a lot of work probably for that, the team not have a time for that or don't like that idea.

04-19-07, 03:10 PM	#3
down and out Sparky Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: UK Posts: 150 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Depends on how you approach the convoy and weather conditions Radar is making an appearance around then too 84 U-boats lost in 1942 (3221 men died and 818 men survived those losses) http://uboat.net/fates/losses/1942.htm

04-19-07, 03:37 PM	#4
Spytrx Medic Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Cornwall, UK Posts: 167 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	there is already a thread about this running here. I think it would be fair to say though that anybody looking for a game that is harder to play and more challenging right from the first Sept 1939 with some fancy sounds and graphics (and the odd cheat) should go for GWX... Otherwise just stick with the vanilla version of the game and add the mods and skins you fancy to it as you go and have a look around if you can find some tweaks for some more realistic settings on the way...

04-19-07, 06:46 PM	#5
VipertheSniper Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Austria Posts: 1,074 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Can't say I've had problems thus far, although last time in the Carribean a DD destroyed my port diesel when I was at about 70 meters on the way down to 240 meters in my IXC, some heavy flooding in the aft compartments, had to go on flank and blow ballast to not get sucked down below 274 meters, which I had tested before is the deepest I can go, before the pressure hull starts to lose hull integrity. One of my worst patrols, 31k only, in the Carribean, October 42 or something, had to limp home on one leg so to say, barely made it with my fuel. Good thing tho, once below 200 meters I could go on 1/3 ahead, even tho the destroyers were still circling above me. So much for Uber DD's GWX with Stay alert crew 8km version.

04-19-07, 09:14 PM	#7
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Come on now, its really not that hard.

04-20-07, 02:01 AM	#9
Sardaukar67 Machinist's Mate Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 126 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	Good advice there. I am quite a SHIII newbie myself, old hand with Aces of Deep though. I played vanilla for some time and found it lacking in many aspects, so I installed NYGM mod for now. I got really frustrated first because I thought I had proper evasive tactics..well, I had..just was in too shallow. It's indeed wise to be very cautious. And dive deep is the answer..plus using of well-timed "sprint and drift" as said above. Or "sprint and glide"... When you go to flank speed underwater and cut down your electric motor power, you can glide silently for a while..and making course adjustments too. Like said, don't give too much rudder, since you'll slow down too much. Managed to evade 4 DD "death-star" recently too...which usually kills you when in shallows. And this time I even had damage so couldn't go deeper than 145 m. When you see heavily escorted TF/Convoy in shallow water..ask yourself: "How much I want to be alive ?" :p Caution is the answer, pick your fights since you can hide but you usually cannot run.

04-20-07, 02:48 AM	#11
Sardaukar67 Machinist's Mate Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 126 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	Even in AOD there was "Wheel of Death", those red spikes coming towards you from all directions on sonar screen... When you get "Depth Charges in water", go flank briefly and then cut down to 1 knot, trying to maneuver most of the ASW ships wo they are either behind you or in front of you to reduce sonar aspect. Against 1 enemy I can often make it with 2 knots..can turn better and keep him in disadvantageous aspect better. Against multiple ASW ships it's when the "fun" starts, like in real war. If I recall correctly there were late war Hunter/Killer ASW groups that always sunk U-boat after they detected and aquired it. Either they managed to sink/damage it with Hedgehogs/DCs...or if U-boat was just too good in evasion, they just waited it to run out of electrical power and oxygen etc. Only thermal layer and lot of luck could save sub from destruction in that situation..since then Allies knew the underwater ranges and limitations of U-boats. Even if one could evade them underwater, they'd get you on radar when you show your snorkel after running out of "juice". ASW just got way too good, only XXI had real chances after late 1944.