Sim or Arcade? My too successful patrol

AS · 03-26-07, 07:01 PM

Hi all, just finished my first patrol and sadly I´m under the impression that SH4 appeals to the arcade and casual gamers, so here´s why:

started mission on Dec. 1941. Once I´d arrived near Japan my 25 day patrol went like this (without exceptions):

- from 6 a.m. to 22:00 there were planes spotted three or four times a day (please note I did NOT equipp any radar, they were all visual contacts, even when dark)

- contact reports every couple of hours (LOADS of traffic out there)

- ran into ships and convoys accidently every now and then. This and all the planes at day made it difficult to travel at all

- fired all my torps, NOT A SINGLE DUD, three misses (auto TDC)

- sank 5 merchants 30,000+ tons easily, auto shot one plane. Destroyers sometimes as near as 2000ft didn´t notice me or didn´t care at all. I didn´t take them seriously after my first experiences and started being careless, e.g. waiting for ships to sink at pericsope depth while destroyers were all around. I didn´t care, they didn´t notice, no matter whther I was rigged for silent running or reloading and doing stand and singing some songs with Bernard loudly farting...

I played at about 77% (auto TDC, free camera).

Now what I´ve seen so far seems pretty arcade to me. Some features are just ridiculous and beyond belief, e.g:

- all those planes never reaching me in time although they were sometimes only spotted at "medium range" and my GAR takes 80 seconds to dive

- no DUDS in 1941? Forget it! (and yes, I DID check the "dud torpedo" setting)

- blind, deaf and dumb destroyers...

- way too much traffic and too many radio reports. Historically, US skippers were not too successful and their individual tonnage was comparatively small. 20.000 tons on one patrol was considered a huge success, not mentioning the fact that they tended too vastly over-estimate the size and tons of enemy ships (see Padfield: U-Boat war). The tonnage I sank on my first patrol is way too high, and it didn´t take any serious calculating or submarine tactics. Just periscope depth, waiting for them to come, fire torps, bingo. Even with manual targeting it wouldn´t have been a real problem.

I guess there will be some kind of GWX mod some day. Until then, SH4 really seems very arcadish too me.

I still like the game for what it may be one day. However, I think it´ll take some tweaking...

Cheers, AS

-

FAdmiral · 03-26-07, 07:24 PM

The mods that make this game will come someday SOON. These modders
cut their teeth on SH3 and I expect to see this game transformed in less than
90 days (probably sooner the way that it happening now over at the modders forum).

JIM

PS. I learned from SH3 that its best to wait on the campaigns till the modders
are done....

mookiemookie · 03-26-07, 07:29 PM

After sinking two unescorted huge liners at 18,000 tons apiece and 2 DD's on my second patrol, I kind of am getting the same feeling here.

I'm at the top of the "Sub Aces" chalkboard with 50,000+ tons. Second place has about 6500 tons.

Schlageter-JG26 · 03-26-07, 07:33 PM

As far as modding, there's some new stuff to work with but its easy to figure out and there is TONS of original SH3 stuff to be ported over.

To make it tougher, try playing the game on Very Hard difficulty level. You set your OWN individual difficulty in the Main Menu options. When you start a career and choose difficulty there it is setting the enemy AI more than anything. Even on Very Hard, I find it possible to sneak unbelievably close and the AI is still a bit dumb, but at least the DDs swarm you more instead of stopping to make more coffee.

If you want to make it tougher, try manual TDC. Between the difficulty of getting it perfect and the glitches that occasionally interfere, it will have you screaming at your monitor before long.

Could also try handicapping your crew... leave a guy from each shift in each compartment on shore while you go on patrol.

But I DO wish the enemy AI was better than "Heavily Intoxicated". Even with several DDs BLASTING me with sonar, they still drive 1000m away and drop charges. The REALLY smart ones decide to just stop. Others don't have the common sense to consider that XYZ Freighter was hit on the Port side... let's look for the sub over there. Still more will see a torp strike and run 30km away to hide.

The enemy needs to be a STRONG one.

Schlageter-JG26 · 03-26-07, 07:41 PM

Just as a 'for instance'. There ought to be NO WAY I could approach a Japanese carrier group without being sent to the bottom. This was on Hard and I was fortunate enough to plot a good intercept to get directly ahead of the fleet and stop to wait for them. But I was also able to loose all 10 torps on 3 different targets... sinking two and leaving a heavy cruiser listing to starboard and limping on 1 screw. I did that with 10+ DDs nearby, 2 other Heavy cruisers and a smattering of other military ships all within 3000m in all directions. Dang if I didn't get away untouched after adding the limper and a seaplane tender to the list. I just went to silent running and turned between a few ships then turned 90 degrees to the fleet's direction and cruised out on silent mode.... while the rest of the fleet pretty much sat there.

wooo.... i can hardly contain my excitement....

tater · 03-27-07, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schlageter-JG26

Just as a 'for instance'. There ought to be NO WAY I could approach a Japanese carrier group without being sent to the bottom.

Odd, USS Nautilus (SS-168) attacked Kaga at Midway, and while attacked by several DDs, she wasn't even damaged. Go figure.

tater

joea · 03-27-07, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schlageter-JG26

Just as a 'for instance'. There ought to be NO WAY I could approach a Japanese carrier group without being sent to the bottom. This was on Hard and I was fortunate enough to plot a good intercept to get directly ahead of the fleet and stop to wait for them. But I was also able to loose all 10 torps on 3 different targets... sinking two and leaving a heavy cruiser listing to starboard and limping on 1 screw. I did that with 10+ DDs nearby, 2 other Heavy cruisers and a smattering of other military ships all within 3000m in all directions. Dang if I didn't get away untouched after adding the limper and a seaplane tender to the list. I just went to silent running and turned between a few ships then turned 90 degrees to the fleet's direction and cruised out on silent mode.... while the rest of the fleet pretty much sat there.

wooo.... i can hardly contain my excitement....

What year was this? I agree it was a bit too easy but don't forget the Taiho and Shinano among other ships were sunk.

THE_MASK · 03-27-07, 04:32 AM

Real subs couldnt go time compression .

ColonelCuneo · 03-26-07, 07:49 PM

I agree that sometimes yuo can be too sucessful. I had a patrol where I sank 196,000 tons. I deck gunned about 7 or 8 merchants and then ran into a large TF with a Yamato, 2 Kongos, 2 Shokakus, 2 Hiryus and a Fuso. I sank the Yamato, a Shokaku, a Hiryu, and a Kongo... in a Salmon. And during all this I was attacked my a DD once. Needless to say I was given a new sub when I got back to base.

Ducimus · 03-26-07, 08:06 PM

Thank you for reminding me to look at the airstrike.cfg

Yeah i agree, the planes are a wee bit excessive.

edit: btw, dumb AI.. how dumb we talking about? stock Sh3 dumb, or just thermal layer dumb?

clayton · 03-26-07, 08:13 PM

Also, what type of torps were you using? Though the Mark 14's had real, serious issues the contact, early war Mark 10's were preety much bug free! Also, there is a mod on the mod forum that reduces the contacts shown on the map. I find this little tweak very realistic and seems to corelate well with the Pacific sub war!

Grothesj2 · 03-26-07, 09:35 PM

In SH3 you could wipe out entire convoys so this is nothing new here. Things will be tweaked I'm sure.

Cakewalk · 03-26-07, 10:06 PM

I found a convoy on my second patrol, and having not sunk any ships yet, I went for it.

There were extremely rough seas, and the destroyers seemed to be listing as though partially flooded, and were barely moving, and seemed to take no notice of me.

I sailed straight into the convoy on the surface in daytime, right past the destroyers, and took out about 35,000 tons of merchants using my deck gun and surface torpedo attacks.

I then used up the last of my deck gun ammo on the destroyer, which floated for another minute, then exploded and sank in about 8 seconds.

Crazy.

ijozic · 03-27-07, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clayton

Also, what type of torps were you using? Though the Mark 14's had real, serious issues the contact, early war Mark 10's were preety much bug free!

I have read that they too had the depth problem initially, caused by the warheads being heavier than the test heads and solved in January, 1942. I kind of doubt this was simulated since it's relevant for the first several months of the campaign.

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/1592/ustorp2.htm (Paragraph 5)

Ducimus · 03-26-07, 10:18 PM

just FYI on the OP, with the exception of dud torpedo rate, just about everything there is fixable without ubi's help. Some of it already IS fixed. Others of it, nobody's gotten to yet.

03-26-07, 07:01 PM	#1
AS 中国水兵 Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 275 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 0	Sim or Arcade? My too successful patrol Hi all, just finished my first patrol and sadly I´m under the impression that SH4 appeals to the arcade and casual gamers, so here´s why: started mission on Dec. 1941. Once I´d arrived near Japan my 25 day patrol went like this (without exceptions): - from 6 a.m. to 22:00 there were planes spotted three or four times a day (please note I did NOT equipp any radar, they were all visual contacts, even when dark) - contact reports every couple of hours (LOADS of traffic out there) - ran into ships and convoys accidently every now and then. This and all the planes at day made it difficult to travel at all - fired all my torps, NOT A SINGLE DUD, three misses (auto TDC) - sank 5 merchants 30,000+ tons easily, auto shot one plane. Destroyers sometimes as near as 2000ft didn´t notice me or didn´t care at all. I didn´t take them seriously after my first experiences and started being careless, e.g. waiting for ships to sink at pericsope depth while destroyers were all around. I didn´t care, they didn´t notice, no matter whther I was rigged for silent running or reloading and doing stand and singing some songs with Bernard loudly farting... I played at about 77% (auto TDC, free camera). Now what I´ve seen so far seems pretty arcade to me. Some features are just ridiculous and beyond belief, e.g: - all those planes never reaching me in time although they were sometimes only spotted at "medium range" and my GAR takes 80 seconds to dive - no DUDS in 1941? Forget it! (and yes, I DID check the "dud torpedo" setting) - blind, deaf and dumb destroyers... - way too much traffic and too many radio reports. Historically, US skippers were not too successful and their individual tonnage was comparatively small. 20.000 tons on one patrol was considered a huge success, not mentioning the fact that they tended too vastly over-estimate the size and tons of enemy ships (see Padfield: U-Boat war). The tonnage I sank on my first patrol is way too high, and it didn´t take any serious calculating or submarine tactics. Just periscope depth, waiting for them to come, fire torps, bingo. Even with manual targeting it wouldn´t have been a real problem. I guess there will be some kind of GWX mod some day. Until then, SH4 really seems very arcadish too me. I still like the game for what it may be one day. However, I think it´ll take some tweaking... Cheers, AS - __________________ Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong. (Oscar Wilde)

03-26-07, 07:24 PM	#2
FAdmiral Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Posts: 1,079 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	The mods that make this game will come someday SOON. These modders cut their teeth on SH3 and I expect to see this game transformed in less than 90 days (probably sooner the way that it happening now over at the modders forum). JIM PS. I learned from SH3 that its best to wait on the campaigns till the modders are done.... __________________ If you\'re not taking losses, you\'re not doing enough. RAdm. Kelly Turner, USN ********************************** www.fairtax.org

03-26-07, 07:29 PM	#3
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	After sinking two unescorted huge liners at 18,000 tons apiece and 2 DD's on my second patrol, I kind of am getting the same feeling here. I'm at the top of the "Sub Aces" chalkboard with 50,000+ tons. Second place has about 6500 tons. __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

03-26-07, 07:33 PM	#4
Schlageter-JG26 Helmsman Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 107 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	As far as modding, there's some new stuff to work with but its easy to figure out and there is TONS of original SH3 stuff to be ported over. To make it tougher, try playing the game on Very Hard difficulty level. You set your OWN individual difficulty in the Main Menu options. When you start a career and choose difficulty there it is setting the enemy AI more than anything. Even on Very Hard, I find it possible to sneak unbelievably close and the AI is still a bit dumb, but at least the DDs swarm you more instead of stopping to make more coffee. If you want to make it tougher, try manual TDC. Between the difficulty of getting it perfect and the glitches that occasionally interfere, it will have you screaming at your monitor before long. Could also try handicapping your crew... leave a guy from each shift in each compartment on shore while you go on patrol. But I DO wish the enemy AI was better than "Heavily Intoxicated". Even with several DDs BLASTING me with sonar, they still drive 1000m away and drop charges. The REALLY smart ones decide to just stop. Others don't have the common sense to consider that XYZ Freighter was hit on the Port side... let's look for the sub over there. Still more will see a torp strike and run 30km away to hide. The enemy needs to be a STRONG one.

03-26-07, 07:41 PM	#5
Schlageter-JG26 Helmsman Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 107 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	Just as a 'for instance'. There ought to be NO WAY I could approach a Japanese carrier group without being sent to the bottom. This was on Hard and I was fortunate enough to plot a good intercept to get directly ahead of the fleet and stop to wait for them. But I was also able to loose all 10 torps on 3 different targets... sinking two and leaving a heavy cruiser listing to starboard and limping on 1 screw. I did that with 10+ DDs nearby, 2 other Heavy cruisers and a smattering of other military ships all within 3000m in all directions. Dang if I didn't get away untouched after adding the limper and a seaplane tender to the list. I just went to silent running and turned between a few ships then turned 90 degrees to the fleet's direction and cruised out on silent mode.... while the rest of the fleet pretty much sat there. wooo.... i can hardly contain my excitement....

03-27-07, 04:32 AM	#8
THE_MASK Ace of the deep . Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,226 Downloads: 901 Uploads: 73	Real subs couldnt go time compression .

03-26-07, 07:49 PM	#9
ColonelCuneo Nub Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 4 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I agree that sometimes yuo can be too sucessful. I had a patrol where I sank 196,000 tons. I deck gunned about 7 or 8 merchants and then ran into a large TF with a Yamato, 2 Kongos, 2 Shokakus, 2 Hiryus and a Fuso. I sank the Yamato, a Shokaku, a Hiryu, and a Kongo... in a Salmon. And during all this I was attacked my a DD once. Needless to say I was given a new sub when I got back to base.

03-26-07, 08:06 PM	#10
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Thank you for reminding me to look at the airstrike.cfg Yeah i agree, the planes are a wee bit excessive. edit: btw, dumb AI.. how dumb we talking about? stock Sh3 dumb, or just thermal layer dumb?

03-26-07, 08:13 PM	#11
clayton Samurai Navy Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: At your mom's house... Posts: 571 Downloads: 218 Uploads: 0	Also, what type of torps were you using? Though the Mark 14's had real, serious issues the contact, early war Mark 10's were preety much bug free! Also, there is a mod on the mod forum that reduces the contacts shown on the map. I find this little tweak very realistic and seems to corelate well with the Pacific sub war!

03-26-07, 09:35 PM	#12
Grothesj2 Medic Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 167 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	In SH3 you could wipe out entire convoys so this is nothing new here. Things will be tweaked I'm sure.

03-26-07, 10:06 PM	#13
Cakewalk Engineer Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 212 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	I found a convoy on my second patrol, and having not sunk any ships yet, I went for it. There were extremely rough seas, and the destroyers seemed to be listing as though partially flooded, and were barely moving, and seemed to take no notice of me. I sailed straight into the convoy on the surface in daytime, right past the destroyers, and took out about 35,000 tons of merchants using my deck gun and surface torpedo attacks. I then used up the last of my deck gun ammo on the destroyer, which floated for another minute, then exploded and sank in about 8 seconds. Crazy.

03-26-07, 10:18 PM	#15
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	just FYI on the OP, with the exception of dud torpedo rate, just about everything there is fixable without ubi's help. Some of it already IS fixed. Others of it, nobody's gotten to yet.