New guns jamming in combat!

moose1am · 03-23-07, 02:57 PM

OK I just saw on future weapons a story about a new US gun that will be put into operation. Some of these are being used in Iraq today. The bad thing about these new guns is that they get jammed when exposed to sand and dirt. Now the Army is ordering another 100,000 of these new weapons before they even get the ones in operation fixed.

This reminds me of the Mark ?? torpedoes that were used by the USA during the first few years of WWII. By now everyone knows that story. If not do a Google search on defective WWII torpedoes.

And everyone should know about the first M16's that were used in Nam. They too jammed easily when they got dirty. These rifles had to be modified to free jammed cartridges.

No one wants to get in a firefight and have their weapon jam.

It's bad enough that our guys are being sent to police Iraq while there is a civil war going on. But to send them into battle again with defective weapons is CRIMINAL.

I am going to call my senator and congressman and demand that they look into these new guns and get them fixed before the Army orders another 100,000 of these defective guns.

These guns work great when they are clean but in the middle east where they are needed it's impossible to keep them clean with all the blowing sand and fine grit.

I did see a gun being use on the Future Weapons show where they laid the gun down in sand and then picked it up and used it and it worked. But when our soldiers start complaining about their guns jamming while in a firefight that's the last straw.

We need to give our guys the best weapons possible if we are going to send them into harms way. They should not have to die needlessly.

SUBMAN1 · 03-23-07, 03:06 PM

What gun? Can't call anyone without knowing what it is.

-S

elite_hunter_sh3 · 03-23-07, 03:48 PM

AK 47s FOR EVERYBODY!!!!, seriously only reason y america wont use the ak 47 is because russia will say "o so now u r using OUR weapons" then all the flaming will begin, america has THE best technology in the world for their airplanes etc, their guns r so high tech... yet they still jam by some lousy sand and dirt, while a gun made in the late 40's early 50's still better then those guns today, if america switched to ak47 anmd used their technology god knows wut kind of crazy high powered gun they wud have,

Kazuaki Shimazaki II · 03-23-07, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elite_hunter_sh3

AK 47s FOR EVERYBODY!!!!, seriously only reason y america wont use the ak 47 is because russia will say "o so now u r using OUR weapons" then all the flaming will begin, america has THE best technology in the world for their airplanes etc, their guns r so high tech... yet they still jam by some lousy sand and dirt, while a gun made in the late 40's early 50's still better then those guns today, if america switched to ak47 anmd used their technology god knows wut kind of crazy high powered gun they wud have,

Actually, the AK-47 was an engineering compromise suited to Russian conditions. It was deliberately built "crudely" - big heavy bolt, wide tolerances ... etc. The nice thing is that it stops them from jamming, but the tolerances kill off long-range accuracy.

Tchocky · 03-23-07, 07:22 PM

Ah yes, this was it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_HK416

Yahoshua · 03-23-07, 07:24 PM

With the avg. being 3-5 MOA at 100 meters (1 Minute of Angle = 1" at 100 meters), I'd say that kills ANY hope of accuracy!!

bradclark1 · 03-23-07, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

With the avg. being 3-5 MOA at 100 meters (1 Minute of Angle = 1" at 100 meters), I'd say that kills ANY hope of accuracy!!

Thats where sight picture comes in.

Torpedo Fodder · 03-23-07, 09:00 PM

I imagine the weapon being referred to in the opening post is the new M312 heavy machine gun. I might have said thr Mk. 46 and Mk. 48 SAWs (both based on the FN Minimi/M249 SAW), but since those are used exclusivly by SOCOM, there's no way the military would be ordering 100,000 of them.

SUBMAN1 · 03-23-07, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Actually, the AK-47 was an engineering compromise suited to Russian conditions. It was deliberately built "crudely" - big heavy bolt, wide tolerances ... etc. The nice thing is that it stops them from jamming, but the tolerances kill off long-range accuracy.

Pretty much spot on.

Other drawbacks:

the sights are too short

the 7.62x39 is a really bad bullet if you want to kill people. Seems to make a wound similar to a small calibre handgun

the 7.62x39 is too heavy and drops significantly at range.

Hitting anything with this gun at over 100 meters = act of frustration. I guess for the 1940's and 50's, it was rather sophisticated however.

-S

The Noob · 03-24-07, 08:52 AM

My choice of weapons is strongly influenced by Rambonism.

Quote:

Rambonism

There are several fundamental laws of Rambonism. They are:

1: When in war, use the biggest calibre, noisiest, most inaccurate machine gun possible; no sniper rifles allowed

2: If no big gun is available, use a big noisy handgun such as the Desert Eagle.

3: If no big noisy handgun is available, use a huge freaking combat knife such as the one depicted in the movie First Blood.

4: If no weapon from rules 1-3 is available, you must use your fists while screaming loudly.

5: These rules apply to video games as well, such as Americas Army and Counterstrike.

6: Always make your presence known.

CptSimFreak · 03-23-07, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

What gun? Can't call anyone without knowing what it is.

-S

It's probably XM-8, although I didn't know they entered combat..

SUBMAN1 · 03-23-07, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptSimFreak

It's probably XM-8, although I didn't know they entered combat..

That project was cancelled long ago. None were made for military service.

blue3golf · 03-23-07, 04:11 PM

As an infantryman with tours to Iraq I can say i never had a problem with an M16. Sure, they might require some cleaning but that's part of it and if you do it right after a mission there should be no problems. The old CLP sucks, if you use something like Mil-Tec or some sort of dry lube they work fine. It all comes down to how well you take care of your weapon. Only time I've had one jam after a couple magazines was at a range when it was freezing cold and the thing heated up so fast it the metal expanded to fast and that's what happens. As for the AK, the only reason it is so reliable is beacuse of how loose the tolerances are that it is built too, there is so much room in that receiver that mud and all kinds of crap can get in there and it still fires, but the price of that is accuracy, or total lack of it. The round an AK uses doesn't do the damage to the human body that one from the M16 does either, it just leaves a hole, easy fix, nothing like getting hit and then the round tumbles and bounces all over inside the body like ours do, can't plug holes you can't see. I would rather spend a little extra time cleaning and M16, which your supposed to do anyway, and have my accuracy than just some spray gun.

CptSimFreak · 03-23-07, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moose1am

And everyone should know about the first M16's that were used in Nam. They too jammed easily when they got dirty. These rifles had to be modified to free jammed cartridges.

M16 was fixed? That's news to me since I used M16-A2,A3 and A4 and not of them were fixed. They would jamm at the shooting range (ideal conditions, no dirt) after less than 70 rounds.....

elite_hunter_sh3 · 03-23-07, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptSimFreak

Quote:

Originally Posted by moose1am

And everyone should know about the first M16's that were used in Nam. They too jammed easily when they got dirty. These rifles had to be modified to free jammed cartridges.

M16 was fixed? That's news to me since I used M16-A2,A3 and A4 and not of them were fixed. They would jamm at the shooting range (ideal conditions, no dirt) after less than 70 rounds.....

thats because when i was first made they switched the firing cartridge to a different caliber so it fired longer but the charge that was used to fire the bullet was dirty and not clean, if they stuck to the stock cartridge designed for the m16 they wudda had no ideal condition jams.

03-23-07, 02:57 PM	#1
moose1am Frogman Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 303 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	New guns jamming in combat! OK I just saw on future weapons a story about a new US gun that will be put into operation. Some of these are being used in Iraq today. The bad thing about these new guns is that they get jammed when exposed to sand and dirt. Now the Army is ordering another 100,000 of these new weapons before they even get the ones in operation fixed. This reminds me of the Mark ?? torpedoes that were used by the USA during the first few years of WWII. By now everyone knows that story. If not do a Google search on defective WWII torpedoes. And everyone should know about the first M16's that were used in Nam. They too jammed easily when they got dirty. These rifles had to be modified to free jammed cartridges. No one wants to get in a firefight and have their weapon jam. It's bad enough that our guys are being sent to police Iraq while there is a civil war going on. But to send them into battle again with defective weapons is CRIMINAL. I am going to call my senator and congressman and demand that they look into these new guns and get them fixed before the Army orders another 100,000 of these defective guns. These guns work great when they are clean but in the middle east where they are needed it's impossible to keep them clean with all the blowing sand and fine grit. I did see a gun being use on the Future Weapons show where they laid the gun down in sand and then picked it up and used it and it worked. But when our soldiers start complaining about their guns jamming while in a firefight that's the last straw. We need to give our guys the best weapons possible if we are going to send them into harms way. They should not have to die needlessly. __________________ Regards, Moose1am My avatar resembles the moderator as they are the ones that control the avatar on my page.

03-23-07, 03:06 PM	#2
SUBMAN1 Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 11,866 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	What gun? Can't call anyone without knowing what it is. -S __________________

03-23-07, 07:22 PM	#5
Tchocky Navy Seal Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5,874 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Ah yes, this was it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_HK416 __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

03-23-07, 07:24 PM	#6
Yahoshua The Old Man Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,493 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	With the avg. being 3-5 MOA at 100 meters (1 Minute of Angle = 1" at 100 meters), I'd say that kills ANY hope of accuracy!! __________________ Science is the organized unpredictability that strives not to set limits to mans' capabilities, but is the engine by which the limits of mans' understanding is defined-Yahoshua

03-23-07, 09:00 PM	#8
Torpedo Fodder Ensign Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Whitby, Ontario Posts: 234 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I imagine the weapon being referred to in the opening post is the new M312 heavy machine gun. I might have said thr Mk. 46 and Mk. 48 SAWs (both based on the FN Minimi/M249 SAW), but since those are used exclusivly by SOCOM, there's no way the military would be ordering 100,000 of them. __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum - If you want peace, prepare for war. "Those who turn their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't"

03-23-07, 03:48 PM	#3
elite_hunter_sh3 The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,376 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	AK 47s FOR EVERYBODY!!!!, seriously only reason y america wont use the ak 47 is because russia will say "o so now u r using OUR weapons" then all the flaming will begin, america has THE best technology in the world for their airplanes etc, their guns r so high tech... yet they still jam by some lousy sand and dirt, while a gun made in the late 40's early 50's still better then those guns today, if america switched to ak47 anmd used their technology god knows wut kind of crazy high powered gun they wud have,

03-23-07, 04:11 PM	#13
blue3golf Weps Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Traverse City, MI Posts: 352 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	As an infantryman with tours to Iraq I can say i never had a problem with an M16. Sure, they might require some cleaning but that's part of it and if you do it right after a mission there should be no problems. The old CLP sucks, if you use something like Mil-Tec or some sort of dry lube they work fine. It all comes down to how well you take care of your weapon. Only time I've had one jam after a couple magazines was at a range when it was freezing cold and the thing heated up so fast it the metal expanded to fast and that's what happens. As for the AK, the only reason it is so reliable is beacuse of how loose the tolerances are that it is built too, there is so much room in that receiver that mud and all kinds of crap can get in there and it still fires, but the price of that is accuracy, or total lack of it. The round an AK uses doesn't do the damage to the human body that one from the M16 does either, it just leaves a hole, easy fix, nothing like getting hit and then the round tumbles and bounces all over inside the body like ours do, can't plug holes you can't see. I would rather spend a little extra time cleaning and M16, which your supposed to do anyway, and have my accuracy than just some spray gun.