Need a History Lesson

MarkQuinn · 03-15-07, 03:10 PM

WWII has never been my area of expertise, but I learned a lot from Silent Hunter III (not the game as much as forums like this with knowledgeable people and subsequent reading).

Now that we're entering a new theater of naval warfare, and assuming SHIV is at least marginally true to the facts, I wonder, what can we expect?

We know that in the Atlantic, the Germans had it very easy early in the war. As the years progressed, so did British countermeasures. Eventually the hunters became the hunted and tables were turned on the German u-boat fleet.

Assuming the Pacific theater is reenacted with some degree of accuracy, how well can we expect the Americans to fare early in the war, then on toward the middle and end? Can we expect a similar dynamic to the German's experience or will it be quite the opposite, with American submarines having a difficult time early on but taking the advantage as the war dragged on? And if it is the later, does anyone have any idea how this might pan out in terms of gameplay, since proper game design presents greater challenges as the game wears on, but increased American success later in the war would undermind that?

Opinions please!

mookiemookie · 03-15-07, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkQuinn

will it be quite the opposite, with American submarines having a difficult time early on but taking the advantage as the war dragged on?

This is exactly correct. The Americans had troubles early on, some from the IJN and some of their own creation (American torpedoes were notoriously unreliable until late 1943.) but as the war went on, the American subs were finding it harder and harder to sink ships because there was nothing left to sink!

A very simplified rundown goes like this: American successes at the Battle of the Coral Sea and the Battle of Midway (Japanese lost 4 carriers at Midway!) in 1942 were considered by many to be the turning points of the war. After Gudalcanal which streteched into 1943, the Japanese were on the defensive. '44 is really when the U.S. subs saw their heyday. By '45 the submarine war was pretty much done. This is why they won't let you start a new career in '45 in SH4, but you can continue on up to the end of the war with a career started earlier.

How it will actually shake out in terms of gameplay...I guess we'll have to wait and see.

MarkQuinn · 03-15-07, 03:42 PM

Thanks Moon.

To be honest this worries me. I'm wondering if a sub simulation based on the Pacific is really the best subject matter for a game with the same theme and layout as SHIII. I never played SH or SHII, but I imagine those games included specific scenarios, not the all-encompasing 1 mile = 1 mile, do-whatever-you-want (within the parameters of your mission orders) kind of campaign. The increased difficulty for the German u-boat commanders is what made SHIII such an intriguing and well-rounded game. "Ah yes, I was successful this time around, but what about next time? When will I start seeing destroyer escorts? When will be attack run be interrupted by that dreaded ping? When will I have to really start being careful?" A game which by contrast becomes easier as you play on doesn't seem as appealing, does it?

Regardless, I'm still just as excited. I think if one goes into it with the mindset that this is not a game but a (albeit loose and approximate) simulation, one would play it as a reenactment and enjoy it for what it is. And as a companion to SHIII, it shall fit very nicely into my game collection.

Chief of the Boat · 03-15-07, 03:43 PM

AND... don't forget that the Boats at the beginning of the War were the old "S" boats, many of which barely got out of Cavite [Manila Bay] ahead of the Nipponese. They were built at or shortly after WW ONE, and mostly were barely able to perform their War Patrol duties. The 'Fleet Boats' (with Names instead of like S-37) didn't show up on the scene until 1942 [as I recall].

COB

mookiemookie · 03-15-07, 04:05 PM

I wouldn't be too concerned. Remember, that this time around, your orders will be more than "Patrol XXXXX for 24 hrs". You'll have rescue and insertion missions, and I would imagine that as the war goes on you'll be sent closer and closer to the home islands. You'll be in shallow water, surrounded by mines and facing more fanatical opponents. I'm sure they've put some thought into this.

canimodo · 03-15-07, 04:16 PM

Now it´s 100% fun....

we can play SH3 till 1942-3 , and switch to SH4 to end, and win the war !!!!

Barkhorn1x · 03-15-07, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canimodo

Now it´s 100% fun....

we can play SH3 till 1942-3 , and switch to SH4 to end, and win the war !!!!

Now there's the can do attitude that I like to see!

Perhaps my sig. from another forum is appropriate here:

Quote:

"Sometimes I wonder if I'm patriotic enough. Yes, I want to kill people, but on both sides."
- Jack Handy

NefariousKoel · 03-15-07, 04:23 PM

I wouldn't worry about this point that difficulty will drop as the war goes on.

I mean... the very first Silent Hunter was in the Pacific and was an excellent game. Hell, the first sim I ever played was Silent Service back in the 80's and it too was quite addicting... also in the Pacific.

MarkQuinn · 03-15-07, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I wouldn't be too concerned. Remember, that this time around, your orders will be more than "Patrol XXXXX for 24 hrs". You'll have rescue and insertion missions, and I would imagine that as the war goes on you'll be sent closer and closer to the home islands. You'll be in shallow water, surrounded by mines and facing more fanatical opponents. I'm sure they've put some thought into this.

Actually I picked SHIII up off the shelf after several months of not playing, realized SHIV was coming out one day or another, and very coincidentally checked out the forums to see it was coming out in a couple weeks. What I mean to say is I haven't done my homework about this title as much as I should have. With regards to those missions you mention, is there any word from Ubi about whether the campaign will be scripted --- i.e. every time you play, your third patrol will be a rescue mission, your fifth will be an insertion and so forth --- or will they be random? I hope they'll be random so that every game will be different.

hyperion2206 · 03-15-07, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkQuinn

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I wouldn't be too concerned. Remember, that this time around, your orders will be more than "Patrol XXXXX for 24 hrs". You'll have rescue and insertion missions, and I would imagine that as the war goes on you'll be sent closer and closer to the home islands. You'll be in shallow water, surrounded by mines and facing more fanatical opponents. I'm sure they've put some thought into this.

Actually I picked SHIII up off the shelf after several months of not playing, realized SHIV was coming out one day or another, and very coincidentally checked out the forums to see it was coming out in a couple weeks. What I mean to say is I haven't done my homework about this title as much as I should have. With regards to those missions you mention, is there any word from Ubi about whether the campaign will be scripted --- i.e. every time you play, your third patrol will be a rescue mission, your fifth will be an insertion and so forth --- or will they be random? I hope they'll be random so that every game will be different.

I'm not sure but comments from the devs suggest that these special missions will occur randomly.

Captain_Jack · 03-15-07, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief of the Boat

AND... don't forget that the Boats at the beginning of the War were the old "S" boats, many of which barely got out of Cavite [Manila Bay] ahead of the Nipponese. They were built at or shortly after WW ONE, and mostly were barely able to perform their War Patrol duties. The 'Fleet Boats' (with Names instead of like S-37) didn't show up on the scene until 1942 [as I recall].

COB

There are Fleet Boats in December 1941...The famous gatos dont go on active patrol until 1942...but their predecessors are there in Dec 1941...Some Fleet Boats made patrols to Japanese Home Waters in the days after Pearl Harbor. There were Fleet Boats in Pearl Harbor and the Philippines on Dec 7th.

P Class, Tambor Class, Salmon Class, are the early Fleet Boats..Many were commissioned in the late 1930s.

Pevs86 · 03-15-07, 07:48 PM

I know NOTHING about the Pacific theatre, nothing at all.

I'm really looking forward to learning as I go, as I have no idea of the boats available to me nor the type of opposition I'll come up against.

To me the random mission factor is a big appeal, I can't wait to surface 2-3 meters from a down pilot

mookiemookie · 03-15-07, 08:02 PM

Here's a nice rundown of the high points of the war. Only takes a few minutes to read and it's a pretty good crash course/Cliff's Notes version of the U.S. submarine war in the Pacific:

http://www.valoratsea.com/subwar.htm

Tigrone · 03-15-07, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Jack

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief of the Boat

AND... don't forget that the Boats at the beginning of the War were the old "S" boats, many of which barely got out of Cavite [Manila Bay] ahead of the Nipponese. They were built at or shortly after WW ONE, and mostly were barely able to perform their War Patrol duties. The 'Fleet Boats' (with Names instead of like S-37) didn't show up on the scene until 1942 [as I recall].

COB

There are Fleet Boats in December 1941...The famous gatos dont go on active patrol until 1942...but their predecessors are there in Dec 1941...Some Fleet Boats made patrols to Japanese Home Waters in the days after Pearl Harbor. There were Fleet Boats in Pearl Harbor and the Philippines on Dec 7th.

P Class, Tambor Class, Salmon Class, are the early Fleet Boats..Many were commissioned in the late 1930s.

Captain Jack is quite right. Here is a list of the Asiatic boats on station:

USN's Asiatic Fleet based in the Philippines. This submarine force was made up of 29 submarines of which 23 were modern 'Fleet' subs, and 6 were old S-Boats.
Submarines

SS-141, S-36, on patrol off Lingayen, PI
SS-144, S-39, on patrol off Sarosogon Bay, Luzon PI
Submarines at Cavite
SS-142 S-37
SS-143 S-38
SS-145 S-40
SS-146 S-41
SS-172 Porpoise [The oldest fleet boat was commissioned 1935, most of the rest are 1938 or newer.]
SS-173 Pike
SS-174 Shark (Undergoing Overhaul at Cavite)
SS-175 Tarpon
SS-176 Perch
SS-177 Pickerel
SS-178 Permit
SS-182 Salmon
SS-183 Seal
SS-184 Skipjack
SS-185 Snapper
SS-186 Stingray
SS-187 Sturgeon
SS-188 Sargo
SS-189 Saury
SS-190 Spearfish
SS-191 Sculpin
SS-192 Sailfish
SS-193 Swordfish
SS-194 Seadragon (Undergoing Overhaul at Cavite)
SS-195 Sealion (Undergoing Overhaul at Cavite)
SS-196 Searaven
SS-197 Seawolf

Crosseye76 · 03-16-07, 12:41 AM

Here's a bit more history:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=107588

03-15-07, 03:10 PM	#1
MarkQuinn A-ganger Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 71 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Need a History Lesson WWII has never been my area of expertise, but I learned a lot from Silent Hunter III (not the game as much as forums like this with knowledgeable people and subsequent reading). Now that we're entering a new theater of naval warfare, and assuming SHIV is at least marginally true to the facts, I wonder, what can we expect? We know that in the Atlantic, the Germans had it very easy early in the war. As the years progressed, so did British countermeasures. Eventually the hunters became the hunted and tables were turned on the German u-boat fleet. Assuming the Pacific theater is reenacted with some degree of accuracy, how well can we expect the Americans to fare early in the war, then on toward the middle and end? Can we expect a similar dynamic to the German's experience or will it be quite the opposite, with American submarines having a difficult time early on but taking the advantage as the war dragged on? And if it is the later, does anyone have any idea how this might pan out in terms of gameplay, since proper game design presents greater challenges as the game wears on, but increased American success later in the war would undermind that? Opinions please!

03-15-07, 03:43 PM	#4
Chief of the Boat Electrician's Mate Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: On the hill South of Port Angeles, Washington Posts: 136 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	AND... don't forget that the Boats at the beginning of the War were the old "S" boats, many of which barely got out of Cavite [Manila Bay] ahead of the Nipponese. They were built at or shortly after WW ONE, and mostly were barely able to perform their War Patrol duties. The 'Fleet Boats' (with Names instead of like S-37) didn't show up on the scene until 1942 [as I recall]. COB __________________ In memory of WAHOO

03-15-07, 04:05 PM	#5
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	I wouldn't be too concerned. Remember, that this time around, your orders will be more than "Patrol XXXXX for 24 hrs". You'll have rescue and insertion missions, and I would imagine that as the war goes on you'll be sent closer and closer to the home islands. You'll be in shallow water, surrounded by mines and facing more fanatical opponents. I'm sure they've put some thought into this. __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

03-15-07, 04:23 PM	#8
NefariousKoel Ace of the Deep Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: No-good Missouri scum Posts: 1,223 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	I wouldn't worry about this point that difficulty will drop as the war goes on. I mean... the very first Silent Hunter was in the Pacific and was an excellent game. Hell, the first sim I ever played was Silent Service back in the 80's and it too was quite addicting... also in the Pacific. __________________ "When Gary told me he had found Jesus, I thought, Yahoo! We're rich! But it turned out to be something different." - Jack Handey

03-15-07, 07:48 PM	#12
Pevs86 Machinist's Mate Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Uxbridge, England Posts: 123 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	I know NOTHING about the Pacific theatre, nothing at all. I'm really looking forward to learning as I go, as I have no idea of the boats available to me nor the type of opposition I'll come up against. To me the random mission factor is a big appeal, I can't wait to surface 2-3 meters from a down pilot __________________

03-15-07, 03:42 PM	#3
MarkQuinn A-ganger Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 71 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Thanks Moon. To be honest this worries me. I'm wondering if a sub simulation based on the Pacific is really the best subject matter for a game with the same theme and layout as SHIII. I never played SH or SHII, but I imagine those games included specific scenarios, not the all-encompasing 1 mile = 1 mile, do-whatever-you-want (within the parameters of your mission orders) kind of campaign. The increased difficulty for the German u-boat commanders is what made SHIII such an intriguing and well-rounded game. "Ah yes, I was successful this time around, but what about next time? When will I start seeing destroyer escorts? When will be attack run be interrupted by that dreaded ping? When will I have to really start being careful?" A game which by contrast becomes easier as you play on doesn't seem as appealing, does it? Regardless, I'm still just as excited. I think if one goes into it with the mindset that this is not a game but a (albeit loose and approximate) simulation, one would play it as a reenactment and enjoy it for what it is. And as a companion to SHIII, it shall fit very nicely into my game collection.

03-15-07, 04:16 PM	#6
canimodo A-ganger Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 73 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Now it´s 100% fun.... we can play SH3 till 1942-3 , and switch to SH4 to end, and win the war !!!!

03-15-07, 08:02 PM	#13
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	Here's a nice rundown of the high points of the war. Only takes a few minutes to read and it's a pretty good crash course/Cliff's Notes version of the U.S. submarine war in the Pacific: http://www.valoratsea.com/subwar.htm __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

03-16-07, 12:41 AM	#15
Crosseye76 Lieutenant Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 258 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Here's a bit more history: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=107588 __________________ There are only two kinds of ships. Submarines and Targets.