Turkey Shoot?

[Rykaird]

SHIII is one of the only games I've ever played that gets much, much harder as you progress through the timeline. 1939 is lke a relaxing day at the beach compared to later years.

We all know the US was ultimately much more successful in their submarine warfare campaign than Germany. I've read a lot of threads on this forum saying that Japanese ASW isn't very good, that their depth charges detonate too shallow, etc.

So, my question is, is anyone concerned this is going to be a turkey shoot? Will campaigns get easier over time as the Japanese are broken?

I've never played on the winning side before, and I really like the difficulty progression in SHIII.

[NefariousKoel]

While probably not becoming absolutely suicidal to go on patrol in the Pacific, I'm sure it will get more difficult as time goes by. After all, there's a reason for multiple AI crew experience on enemy ships.

[Avatar]

Evolutionary speaking, I guess it would get harder, with more experienced ASW efforts, but the fact of the matter is that late in the war there simply were not as much targets to shoot. Also, due to some politician the Japanese set there DC's deeper from 200 to 300ft. and, in turn, sank some boats. These kind of things should add up.

[Crosseye76]

It will start somewhat hard, due to the well discussed flaws in the Mk-14 torpedo.

It will get somewhat easier as those flaws are fixed, and new equipment comes along. ( SD and SJ radar, MK-18's, Cuties, Sub BT, Etc.)

But it will never be a Turkey Shoot. Japanese ASW was not as good as Allied ASW was late in the war, due to the amount of Escort ships built and the ASW tech. the Allies introduced ( Not to mention ULTRA/MAGIC ). However, Subs were lost from the very first days of the war until almost the very last. The Japanese used the tools and ships they had very well, and some became very good at what they did.

It's just that, in the end, ULTRA, Numbers, and Technology doomed the U-boats. Those tools will now be working FOR you, not AGAINST you.

[Sgian Dubh]

Originally Posted by Rykaird

SHIII is one of the only games I've ever played that gets much, much harder as you progress through the timeline. 1939 is lke a relaxing day at the beach compared to later years.

We all know the US was ultimately much more successful in their submarine warfare campaign than Germany. I've read a lot of threads on this forum saying that Japanese ASW isn't very good, that their depth charges detonate too shallow, etc.

So, my question is, is anyone concerned this is going to be a turkey shoot? Will campaigns get easier over time as the Japanese are broken?

I've never played on the winning side before, and I really like the difficulty progression in SHIII.

I would say it depends on what you mean by an increase in difficulty.

The war in the pacific is almost the inverse of what the Germans faced in the atlantic. The IJN became weaker as the war progressed, their ASW efforts were much less effective and they didn't demonstrate the innovativeness and proactive improvement of these forces as the Allies did. There is even mention in the book "Take her Deep" that some U.S. commanders held the IJN's ASW efforts in contempt - and that even the planes were usually not much of a threat unless it was very cloudy to allow the planes to get close under cover. The weather really favored the submarines it seems to me. In addition, the U.S. subs had pretty decent radar almost from the start and when the PPI came along things became really nice.


So if you mean will it get easier and easier to sink merchants as the warr goes on, then I would say yes. *IF* you can find the shrinking number of merchants afloat.

The challenge I am anticipating is having to penetrate closer and closer to the home islands, having to operate in shallow water and still be effective in finding and sinking merchants and IJN ships.

Then there is also the clandestine operations, where the real goal isn't to sink anything (or at least not at the start) the challenge is to get in, do the assigned task and then get back out without being detected. (But I admit that I am also a NUKE lover and I love the clandestine missions for SC and DW - leave the boom, boom to the surface dwellers - I'd rather be landing that SEAL team (Frogmen in SH4) that is going to go in and really put the hurt on the enemy)

I am hoping the shore-spotters are modled with respects to this. If you surface, even at night, near and island there should be a chance that you are spotted, reported and shipping being re-routed away from your location.

I have already assigned Bernard to the position of #1 rubber raft paddler.

I am so keen to get this thing installed I may have to take a day off..........

[NefariousKoel]

The challenge I am anticipating is having to penetrate closer and closer to the home islands, having to operate in shallow water and still be effective in finding and sinking merchants and IJN ships.

Yes indeed. More highly concentrated forces in a smaller area and increasingly more fanatical.

[AirborneTD]

Also, late in the war, mines were a huge problem when moving ever closer to the home islands. Many mines would break loose from their moorings. There is a nice account in Red Scorpion about shooting mines with .50 cal mgs on one of the Rasher's later war patrols (6th I believe).

[AVGWarhawk]

I believe it will be difficult and far from a turkey shoot. Remember that the game will have operational perimeters as well, such as, finding downed pilots and I believe delivering off commandos. I think we are in for a great surprise with this game.

[Iron Budokan]

If the game closely models what happened historically it should become easier as the war wanes. Japanese air cover will be almost non-existant and all the good targets other than a few leaky sampans will be sailing in Japanese waters. It will be very difficult for us to be surprised with our superior radar and technological edge. Numerical forces will be in our favor.

Therefore, I doubt the game will model history that realistically. Even the devs admit you can't start a career in '45 because what's the point? But to remain a fun and engrossing game I don't know what the devs have done to counteract this, but I'm looking forward to seeing it.

[JSF]

That would depend on how well the game is modeled and how careless a skipper you are.

[cmdrk]

Originally Posted by Sgian Dubh

In addition, the U.S. subs had pretty decent radar almost from the start and when the PPI came along things became really nice...

Yes, when they were working.

If I recall correctly in O'Kane's books, radar was sensitive and prone to break downs. The heat dissipation was a problem causing components to fail (mostly SJ). Also, the radar mast may jam and be unable to rotate (not as common). A sub may be without radar for days at a time because of failures or lack of spare parts.

The first radar used was a non-directional air warning one, then surface search came along. O'Kane was wary of using the radar. To prevent heat induced failures it would be used when needed. And he was wary of Japanese radar detectors being used to vector ASW forces his way.

If the game models the radar problems as well, it would add more spice to the game.

[THE_MASK]

You are forgetting that SH4 isnt just about sinking ships anymore .

[RaisinCain]

Originally Posted by Rykaird

So, my question is, is anyone concerned this is going to be a turkey shoot? Will campaigns get easier over time as the Japanese are broken?

While the Japanese never got as good as their US counterparts, that doesn't mean they didn't get better as the war progressed. Minefields were laid out to prevent US subs from getting into richer waters (ie the Sea of Japan, the Inland Sea, the Straits of Formosa, etc). While initially lagging in ASW vessels, they also later fielded subchasers (ie the Matsu class) which were designed all the way from the drawing board as ASW platforms. These ships also featured improved depth charges (which could detonate at deeper depths) and improved sonar, so I feel confident that there will be enough to keep us on our toes!

Aside from these historical observations, it would be a huge blunder for the SH4 development team to devise a game that is overly easy. These guys are sharp, so I doubt they will make such an obvious mistake. Good luck and have fun!

[Crazy Ian]

Not to forget the Japanese didn't set their depth charges below 200ft (They didn't believe a sub could dive deeper than that!)

[LukeFF]

On the subject of Japanese air patrols, I recall reading in a book about the Bowfin how the Japanese had fitted radar to some of their planes late in the war. If so, when did this happen and how effective was it?