Need to learn manual targetting

[xlbob]

I finished my first patrol of my 3rd career last night. I join 2d flottila and assigned to go to the atlatic. Can't remember the grid, but it's right there at the Rockfall or rockland bank(?).

Heading west from Shetland, the weather went bad and stayed bad all the way. After finishing my patrol, on my way back I got a convoy report on grid AM 51 or somewhere near that grid. Since I was nearby I decided to intercet the convoy. But the weather was really bad, and my sonarman is a new guy ... he couldn't hear anything on the hydrophone

I had a really close encounter with one of the merchants. Since the weather was realy bad and it was night, WO only spotted the ship when it was near my boat. I ordered periscope depth and tried to track the ship with my periscope. I could see the ship, but that little triangle, target marker, on the periscope never appeared

I couldn't fire my torp. So I sneak away from the convoy, surface the boat and tried to intercept it again. I was able to position my boat on the convoy's path again. But just like before, the weather was still bad and visibility level was really low. Same thing happen. WO spotted a merchant, when it's almost collided with my boat, and that #@##@ target marker never appeared.

There's also another ship nearby, but it was barely visible ... I followed it while slowing down to add some distance, hoping the target marker will appear ... but again, no target marker.

Finally I decided to leave the convoy alone. I figured there's no way I could get a good shoot in that weather. At the end of my patrol I only sank 4 ships. 2 small merchants, a coastal tanker and a passenger/caro ship. Total tonnage was about 7000 ton.

Looks like it's time for me to learn Manual targetting.

Now my question to you guys who use manual targetting: in the situation like the one that I was in i.e., bad weather, rain, low visibility, will you be able to fire your torps and sink some ships?

Thanks,

[Boris]

Yes, of course you can fire your torps in bad weather.

The good thing about convoys is that you either already know their speed, or you can easily guess it. Plus in a storm, you have to be so close you practically can't miss.

Speed is key to manual targetting. The principle lies in getting the targets speed first, so that you know where the torpedo must travel for a hit.

Like I said, with convoys getting the speed is easy. After that you can put in the right angle on bow manually. Imagine the enemy ship is the centre of the AOB control, the arrow must point in the direction your boat would be if seen from the ship. Range doesn't matter so much when making the shot, it's more important for the speed calc (more on that in a bit).

If you use map markers, you can get a perfect AOB reading by using the angle tool: Click on your sub marker, then on the target ship, and have the angle point in the target ship's direction of travel. The angle displayed is the one you can put in your TDC. Always remember to click the TDC lock toggle after making any adjustment. The TDC will auto update any inputs if you have a ship locked in the periscope view..
Remember to double check the TDC map to make sure the torpedo will go where you want it to, once you're satisfied, fire the torp. Because the TDC corrects itself, within convoys, you can generally target the next ship in line straight after, without changing any setting, and fire off a few more torps. Just remember if the ships have started zig zagging for any reason you may miss.

As for getting speed info. This, as I said is the key to a succeful manual hit. If you can't get it by guessing or from the radio report, you need to calculate it, as is the case for single contacts. This is what the recognition manual is for. Make sure you get the right ship, and check the box in the manual while having the target ship locked. Then use the range control on the notepad, putting the crosshair on the waterline, and the other line on the top of the ships masts. Having the periscope stabilised in the realism settings will make things alot easier. Otherwise, if it's night time you may be able to make the calculations on the surface.
Getting a reading in GWX while submerged will be difficult, since you'll be moving. To get any accurate reading, you must be stationary. Once you have the distance, get the ship's AOB either by guessing, or using the more sure method described above. Once both values are in, you can start calcualting the speed. Wait at least a minute to get a half decent reading, longer if you can afford it. Once you have the speed, satisfy yourself that it is within what you expected, otherwise, do it agin, double checking your inputs.
Once you have set everything correct, remember to check the tick on the notebook, to transfer the new values to the TDC. To be doubly sure, you might want to put in the distance and AOB again (as long as you don't start calcualting the speed again you won't lose it), and recheck the tick on the notepad.

Once the ship comes into a good position, you can open your tubes and fire.

This will be alot harder for GWX users while submerged. I've stopped bothering with speed calculations while submerged, choosing to guess instead, putting the speed into the TDC manually. Because you're submerged, you can at least get closer to the target making a hit more likely.

It's looks like a lot to remember, but it's easy. Once you realise how the TDC works and how it behaves in updating etc, things get alot easier.

[Kumando]

There´s nothing more satisfying than scoring a hit with 100% realism, auto targeting just sucks you only point the scope, lock and voilla you have speed AoB and distance instantaneously what is the fun of that? Is that and having your sub icon "aka" gps marking your sub position in real time all the time,
manual navigation is more gratifying as well specially in bad weather.

[Reece]

If you want a short simple tutorial just go to my download site, also reccomend my bearing overlay tool & Dertiens, PRR tools found: http://files.filefront.com//;6469251;;/
Hope this helps.
Cheers.

[Gezoes]

Actually XLBob, I've had a more or less similar patrol, same area, same bloody weather. I sailed back to Wilhelmshaven thinking the weather would never change. In the North Sea it did:

I got more wind and behold! Rain. :rotfl:

I can tell you CAN hit ships in that kind of weather. Remember, you can't see very well, but it's the same for the escorts... especially at night... creep up close on the surface. That way you can target from the bridge, periscope targetting is another matter. If you're submerged, get the speed and angle first. That way you have more time getting the range with a wobly periscope.

Don't be disappointed by misses. Learn from them. The rewards will come

[xlbob]

Boris, thanks for the tip on manual targeting. Kumando and Gezoes, thanks for the encouragement and assurance that it's worth it
Reece, thanks for the link I've downloaded your tutorial

I'll try it tonight on my third patrol... after some training on naval academy of course

As Boris states target speed is the key to manual targeting.

I do not use the notepad method for determining target speed. Instead I plot the target's positon and course on the nav map while traveling to a good firing position.

Mark target's initial position on nav map and note the time.
Plot target's course.
Make additional marks for target's subsequent positions and note the time.
Measure distance from the first mark to subsequent marks and determine the time it took to travel between these marks.

Now, use this equation to determine estimated speed in knots:
Distance in kilometers x 32.5 divided by the time in minutes = speed in knots
(This is the same as the 3-minute 15-second method but can be used for any amount of time in minutes.)

If you do this a number of times, you'll have a good idea of estimated speed. Manually input this speed into the TDC on the attack map. By the way, speed can be in half knots so never round.

Simple and easy AOB method:
You already have an accurate plot of target's course.
Your u-boat should already be on an intercept course to target's course.
Using the angle tool, draw a line from the u-boat to the target's course along your zero bearing and then the second leg of triangle in direction of target's travel. Note the degrees. This is the AOB at course intercept point.
Go to the periscope or uzo screen and set at zero bearing. Go to the blank notepad, select AOB and set the degrees you've previously calculated and whether it is to port or to starboard. Don't forget to click the checkmarks on the notepad to send info to TDC.
Now you can rotate the scope or uzo and the TDC will always calculate the correct AOB at aiming point.

If target begins to zig-zag, do not change your AOB. Instead manually reduce target speed in the TDC by approximately 1/2 knot.

Don't worry about target distance, it has no affect in the TDC calculation of torpedo offset angle. However, I manually set it at 600 to 1000 meters because that's where I usually try to be at firing. Then the stopwatch is somewhat accurate.

Also, remember to open the outer torpedo doors.

This works, I've hit fast moving targets in excess of 5 kilometers. Must use slower torp speeds for the further torpedo runs. I don't like to shoot at this distance but sometimes you just can' get into a good firing position on a fast moving target.

[Heibges]

Determine target course.

Set your uboat on the same course, and determine the target speed using the matching speed method.

Enter target speed into the TDC.

Calculate attack position and Firing Point.

Conduct overhaul manuever.

Get on 90° Attack Course with target. Basically, based on targets know course, make sure your final course adjustment before launching torpedoes puts you on a perpendicular approach to the target. Remember, do not confuse the 90° Attack Course with 90° AOB.

If the target is moving left to right the AOB will be Starboard.
If the target is moving right to left the AOB will be Starboard.

I fire with 10° of lead on targets 1200m and under. So I fire when the target is bearing 10° (right to left targets), or 350° (left to right targets). Because I am on a perpendicular course to the course of the target I know the AOB at that position.

For targets over 1200m I fire with 20° of lead at bearing 20° and 340°.

Right to Left Target
Bearing 10° = AOB 80° Port
Bearing 20° = AOB 70° Port

Left to Right Target
Bearing 350° = AOB 80° Starboard
Bearing 340° = AOB 70° Starboard

Remember, the above is true if and only if you are on a perpendicular course to the course of your target.

So I am know 10,000m from my target and I already know AOB and Speed.

Finally, I determine range. This will be my final correction to the TDC before firing.

I use the MILS method to determine range, by measuring the length of the ship.

Here is an exerpt from my range chart

Target..........1200m..........1000m......800m.... ..600m
C2.................6..................8........... .10..........12
C3.................7..................9........... .11..........14

This will give you almost instantaneous range, and is more heavy weather friendly. Like everything else, this works best when approaching at the 90° angle.

[Corsair]

As Von Zelda wrote above, concentrate on speed and course of target. Having a precise distance is not so important. I spent a lot of time with the stadimeter trying to figure out ranges until I did a little math and drawing and realized precise range was only for getting a torpedo run time.

[prologos]

I myself had a really tough time trying to use manual targeting at first but in the end of the day the feeling of seeing your torps hit home when you have made all the calculations yourself it's quite nice to say the least!

An easy (for me) way to get things going is that...

First estimate a roughly course of your target.
Try to position your sub in front of your target and in a perpendicular course compared to his.
As it aproaches observe him in your scope/UZO and make course adjustments so that the angle of your boat's course and that of your target make a 90 degree angle.
Order all stop.
Open the tubes you intend to fire.
Use any of the methods mentioned in the messages above to estimate target's speed.
Go to the TDC screen and switch to manual.
Enter target's speed, bearing 0, and angle on bow 90 (left if your target comes from the right of your U-boat, right if it comes from the left).
Go back to your UZO/scope. Position it at bearing 0.
Go to the map screen. Look where target's course intersects with your u-boat's course and using the ruler tool get a range at which the target will pass in front of your sub.
Go to TDC and enter the range you estimated.
Go to UZO/Scope and wait until your target is at 0 bearing from you.
FIRE!
If all goes well you should see (or better hear because as soon as you fire you should dive ASAP if your target has escorts) a nice explosion/s

Off course you must also enter torpedo's depth, speed and method of detonation (but these also apply on auto targeting).

Hope it helps.

[Corsair]

It works even better by not positioning your scope at bearing 0, but at the calculated bearing which will give you a 000 gyroangle (torps will shoot straight) The gyroangle appears under the notepad. If you use bearing 0, the torps will have to shoot with a positive gyroangle and will play catch up with the target instead of hitting at the exact 90° you're looking for.

Originally Posted by Corsair

It works even better by not positioning your scope at bearing 0.

In my method described above you place the scope/uzo on the zero bearing only at the time you input the AOB of subs course to target's course. Then you are free to rotate the scope or uzo which will always calculate the correct AOB when the crosshairs are upon the target.

I generally set up a firing position at 45 to 75 degrees AOB to course intercept. As target approaches I can slowly turn into the targets course to increase the actual AOB with target to closer to 80 to 90 degrees while maintain sufficent distance.

[prologos]

Well said von zelda!
Doing that you minimize the distance the torp has to run to meet the target + you also minimize the risk of torp not detonating due to bad angle when it meets the target. An impact at 90 degrees is the optimal. Off course if the target is going slow it doesn't make much of a difference, but it does if it's going fast (aka warship). That's the way i do it also by now but i tried to give an "as simple as it gets" version

[Corsair]

Originally Posted by von Zelda

In my method described above you place the scope/uzo on the zero bearing only at the time you input the AOB of subs course to target's course. Then you are free to rotate the scope or uzo which will always calculate the correct AOB when the crosshairs are upon the target.

I generally set up a firing position at 45 to 75 degrees AOB to course intercept. As target approaches I can slowly turn into the targets course to increase the actual AOB with target to closer to 80 to 90 degrees while maintain sufficent distance.

Totally agree with you.. My post was referring to Prologos who said " wait until your target is at 0 bearing from you "..

[Heibges]

I try to fire before bearing 000°, at bearing 10°.

This way they usually hit while I am still abeam of the target.

If I fire at 000°, I find my torpedoes don't track as well and I get a lot more misses.

Range becomes important if you have to calculate target speed, that's why if I have my choice, I use the matching speed method on the surface when possible.

If I have the speed, then range really is a non-issue, as the torpedo will intercept all targets on a given AOB and SPEED. But if I have to use the 3 Minute Rule, then my range calculation is very important.

Also, you can use the MILS Method for all ranges, you just need another column added to your range chart.

To use a modern example, a T-72 MBT is about 2.5 MILS long at 2000m at "90° AOB", but only about 1.7 MILS Long at 2000m at "45° AOB".