Can we have a "Pacific Submarine War for Dummies" FAQ?

Subnuts · 10-31-06, 09:03 PM

Over the past couple of months I've gotten a little frustrated about the many misconceptions about the Pacific submarine campaign that seem to be clouding people's preconceptions on Silent Hunter IV. Some of them include:

-Submarines had no impact on the outcome of the war.
-American submarines were poorly designed, slow, ungainly, and based on WWI-era technology. They were basically pleasure cruisers with torpedoes.
-Going on patrol on a Fleet Boat was like walking into a shooting gallery full of helpless merchants.
-American torpedoes were useless throughout the war.
-There were no convoy battles during the war, and no night surface attacks.
-Japanese ASW was useless throughout the war, and the Japanese never bothered to develop new technology.
-The losses suffered by US submarines were extremely light, and as a whole the force suffered no major hardships during the war.

So please, does anybody want to start a FAQ?

Torplexed · 10-31-06, 09:14 PM

The primary consenus circulating seem to be that the US Navy submariners had it pretty soft compared to the Germans, and that'll be a hard consensus to overcome. The truth of the matter was it was a different war in a different theater with different geography fought with different machines and naval philosophies.

Plus, we had those ice cream machines....that makes us look soft.

bookworm_020 · 10-31-06, 10:54 PM

I agree with torplexed on this one, you will have to chnage peoples mindset, maybe the game will do it, but I doubt it.

Ice cream machines I kown about, did you know about the deep fat fryers, and in one case, a slot machine!!

One way of finding if you were lucky or not!

Hylander_1314 · 10-31-06, 11:13 PM

Yes you'll have to adjust your tactics. Japanese convoys were small. The torpedoes stunk, but had a real long range. If they model them, you'll have to be careful about surface attacks with possible armed merchants who wait until you get close enough to blow you out of the water.

Japanese patrol planes like the Rufe (a floatplane version of the Zero), along with the usual Val and long range Zeros which are harder to spot than a PBY or Sunderland.

Hopefully, real Naval engagements like Coral Sea, Midway Bismark Sea, Leyte, the Solomons, etc, etc. Task force picket duty, overt ops, resue missions, and recon. All in the paradise of the South Pcific, while you munch on your ice cream cones from your own onboard Dairy Queen. Since the water purifier constantly breaks down.

Ducimus · 11-01-06, 12:18 AM

I've read alot of Beach's books in the past, and from what i remember, being on a US sub was no walk in the park. HOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTT. LIke 120, 130 degree's. Silent running, no fans, tropical enviorment, nothing but electric motors running, decks covered in sweat, crew stripped to their skivies poping salt tablets. Plus Jap ashcan's were alot bigger then the US counterparts as i recall.

Bort · 11-01-06, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Plus, we had those ice cream machines....that makes us look soft.

MMM...ICE CREAM....rrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhh

Steeltrap · 11-01-06, 01:28 AM

As it happens I've read plenty about the Pacific Theatre. I've also always been interested in submarines.

It should be clear to all but an idiot that operating far from any friendly assistance, as was always the case in the Pacific due to its dimensions, under conditions where you were always open to attack at any stage - let alone being expected to find targets etc... - would be stressful. Breakdowns of equipment could prove disasterous, although the crews were pretty ingenious at overcoming some fairly challenging issues (I like the one on Wahoo about getting the dentists at Midway to fill in the pits in the sleeve of the periscope which had been tearing the insulation and packing, causing a constant - although small - leak when raised!).

While it is true that the USA subs were far more reasonable in their crew accommodations and facilities than the Germans, that's more a real indictment of the Germans' subs than saying the USA's were pleasure cruisers! Aircon alone made a significant difference, especially in the hot, humid Pacific, where the sea temperature served to increase temperatures. The sweating and salt tablets mentioned were a good indication that things weren't much fun when running silent.

It IS true that the Japanese did not develop their ASW cpabilities anywhere near the extent to which the Allies did. It's NOT true to say they were impotent - 52 subs (or whatever the exact loss figures are) is still plenty, especially given the fact that the USA deployed far fewer subs than did Germany.

The biggest point is that the subs were overwhelmingly successfull in strangling Japan. I think something like 90% of shipping from mid-44 onwards failed to reach their destinations.....90%!!!! Japan received NO oil shipments in 1945. Thos examples say it all - the subs of the USA were responsible for the most successful interdiction campaign by submarine anywhere, ever. Period.

So, 'easier' than the Atlantic? On balance, yes. 'Easy'? No. Less challenging? Possibly, but had plenty of challenges unique to the conditions.

Done well, the sim should be excellent, interesting and challenging. Same as Atlantic? No. Is that a bad thing? Not at all.

ook · 11-01-06, 05:32 AM

"Silent Victory: The U.S. Submarine War Against Japan" by Clay Blair <- the best FAQ ever. ;-)

Sawdust · 11-01-06, 07:00 AM

I'm going to have to read up on the submarine war in the Pacific, too, as I don't know much about it. (Just think, there're lots of good movies about the Battle of the Atlantic, but the only Pacific sub movie I can think of is "Operation Petticoat"! :p)

Did the Japanese have any type of sonar? That's a big part of the SHIII game. Maybe the Japanese could still find you by hydrophone when you are trying to hide...but would the enemy's abilities have to be artificially increased to improve gameplay?

cmdrk · 11-01-06, 10:46 AM

One thing to remember is the numbers between the Atlantic and Pacific. The number of ships and subs involved was much greater in the Atlantic which is smaller than the Pacific. The ship densities makes the Pacific numbers smaller. If the density matched the Atlantic, I suspect the tonnage sunk / subs lost to be much closer.
Stealing a line from a movie, Its like comparing apples and oranges, but its all fruit.

Yes the Japanese had sonar, not every escort did, but often one ship did in a convoy. They also had radar dispersed in a like manner.

Other Pacific sub movies - Run Silent, Run Deep - Torpedo Run - Destination Tokyo. Older films with varying value.

Respenus · 11-01-06, 04:09 PM

Well some people will say that America had it's submarine war going on really easy compared to the Germans. But as many of you have posted here, those were two different theaters, with two different enemies and two different idologies!

But I'd still say that Kaleuns were the best!

I like submarines. Really I do. I find them very,... attractive

Both US the German subs looked alike, but you just can't beat the atmosphere on board a U-Boat!

Steeltrap · 11-01-06, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torplexed

The primary consenus circulating seem to be that the US Navy submariners had it pretty soft compared to the Germans, and that'll be a hard consensus to overcome. The truth of the matter was it was a different war in a different theater with different geography fought with different machines and naval philosophies.

Plus, we had those ice cream machines....that makes us look soft.

No, if you really want the USA to look soft, compare the amount of supplies required by a combat division of Germany and the USA......

Read "Brute Force: Allied Strategy and Tactics in the Second World War (Hardcover) by John Ellis" for specifics, but the comparisons are scary indeed!

Torplexed · 11-01-06, 11:19 PM

Every nation plays to it's strengths. For the Germans it was tactical finesse and excellent small unit leadership. For the Soviets, it was sheer brute manpower. For the British it was commando raids and regimental tradition. For the USA it was overwhelming industrial output. The result was an army that had a larger tooth-to-tail ratio than any other nation. An army where a lot of leg units confiscated their own 'unofficial' motor pool. An army where a jeep built for four usually carried only two..or one. Not to mention a huge amount of pilfering and waste and stuff ending up on the black market. But considering that the United States had the 16th largest army in the world in 1940 (after Portugal's) waste in the expansion department was probably inevitable. In retrospect, I'm sure World War 2 could have been fought a lot more efficently and smartly by all sides...but unlike a simulation there was only one go at it.

Soviet_Sharpshooter · 11-02-06, 04:42 AM

The fact the crews of US subs had to deal with hot weather isnt going to be reflected in the game, Silent Hunter 4 WILL be a easier game to play, obviously because the US did alot better in the pacific then Germany did in the Atlantic, this will allow more people to enjoy the Silent Hunter series, alot of game series do this to open up to a wider audience.

Personally ill miss playing the underdogs

TheSatyr · 11-02-06, 04:43 AM

Those who think SHIV will get easier in the later stages will be in for a bit of a surprise.

The Japanese will have fewer merchants to hunt down...but if they keep to historical accuracy they will A)Be mostly in convoys. and B)Have escorts up the ying-yang. In the later war years it wasn't all that uncommon for Japanese convoys to have more escorts than merchant ships.

And as the war progressed the Japanese Navy did design and use DCs with 600lbs of explosives in them...those had to hurt. (Just about everybody else was using 300lbs of explosives in their DCs.).

The Japanese did start the war off without worrying too much about the sub danger...which is what one could expect from a government run by the Army,but thier A/S skills did get alot better during the war.

10-31-06, 09:03 PM	#1
Subnuts The Old Man Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 1,658 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	Can we have a "Pacific Submarine War for Dummies" FAQ? Over the past couple of months I've gotten a little frustrated about the many misconceptions about the Pacific submarine campaign that seem to be clouding people's preconceptions on Silent Hunter IV. Some of them include: -Submarines had no impact on the outcome of the war. -American submarines were poorly designed, slow, ungainly, and based on WWI-era technology. They were basically pleasure cruisers with torpedoes. -Going on patrol on a Fleet Boat was like walking into a shooting gallery full of helpless merchants. -American torpedoes were useless throughout the war. -There were no convoy battles during the war, and no night surface attacks. -Japanese ASW was useless throughout the war, and the Japanese never bothered to develop new technology. -The losses suffered by US submarines were extremely light, and as a whole the force suffered no major hardships during the war. So please, does anybody want to start a FAQ? __________________ My Amazon.com reviews

10-31-06, 09:14 PM	#2
Torplexed Let's Sink Sumptin' ! Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 5,823 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	The primary consenus circulating seem to be that the US Navy submariners had it pretty soft compared to the Germans, and that'll be a hard consensus to overcome. The truth of the matter was it was a different war in a different theater with different geography fought with different machines and naval philosophies. Plus, we had those ice cream machines....that makes us look soft. __________________ --Mobilis in Mobili--

10-31-06, 10:54 PM	#3
bookworm_020 Navy Seal Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sinking ships off the Australian coast Posts: 5,966 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	I agree with torplexed on this one, you will have to chnage peoples mindset, maybe the game will do it, but I doubt it. Ice cream machines I kown about, did you know about the deep fat fryers, and in one case, a slot machine!! One way of finding if you were lucky or not! __________________ "There is always one person in any organization who knows whats going on, That person must be fired"

10-31-06, 11:13 PM	#4
Hylander_1314 Sea Lord Join Date: May 2006 Location: 5 Miles Inland West Of Lake Huron Posts: 1,936 Downloads: 139 Uploads: 0	Yes you'll have to adjust your tactics. Japanese convoys were small. The torpedoes stunk, but had a real long range. If they model them, you'll have to be careful about surface attacks with possible armed merchants who wait until you get close enough to blow you out of the water. Japanese patrol planes like the Rufe (a floatplane version of the Zero), along with the usual Val and long range Zeros which are harder to spot than a PBY or Sunderland. Hopefully, real Naval engagements like Coral Sea, Midway Bismark Sea, Leyte, the Solomons, etc, etc. Task force picket duty, overt ops, resue missions, and recon. All in the paradise of the South Pcific, while you munch on your ice cream cones from your own onboard Dairy Queen. Since the water purifier constantly breaks down. __________________ A legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law. -John Marshall Chief Justice of the Supreme Court ---------------------

11-01-06, 07:00 AM	#9
Sawdust Planesman Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Quadrant DB22 Posts: 198 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I'm going to have to read up on the submarine war in the Pacific, too, as I don't know much about it. (Just think, there're lots of good movies about the Battle of the Atlantic, but the only Pacific sub movie I can think of is "Operation Petticoat"! :p) Did the Japanese have any type of sonar? That's a big part of the SHIII game. Maybe the Japanese could still find you by hydrophone when you are trying to hide...but would the enemy's abilities have to be artificially increased to improve gameplay? __________________ .-. --- ..- --. .... ... . .- ... .- .... . .- -..

11-01-06, 12:18 AM	#5
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	I've read alot of Beach's books in the past, and from what i remember, being on a US sub was no walk in the park. HOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTT. LIke 120, 130 degree's. Silent running, no fans, tropical enviorment, nothing but electric motors running, decks covered in sweat, crew stripped to their skivies poping salt tablets. Plus Jap ashcan's were alot bigger then the US counterparts as i recall.

11-01-06, 01:28 AM	#7
Steeltrap Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 818 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	As it happens I've read plenty about the Pacific Theatre. I've also always been interested in submarines. It should be clear to all but an idiot that operating far from any friendly assistance, as was always the case in the Pacific due to its dimensions, under conditions where you were always open to attack at any stage - let alone being expected to find targets etc... - would be stressful. Breakdowns of equipment could prove disasterous, although the crews were pretty ingenious at overcoming some fairly challenging issues (I like the one on Wahoo about getting the dentists at Midway to fill in the pits in the sleeve of the periscope which had been tearing the insulation and packing, causing a constant - although small - leak when raised!). While it is true that the USA subs were far more reasonable in their crew accommodations and facilities than the Germans, that's more a real indictment of the Germans' subs than saying the USA's were pleasure cruisers! Aircon alone made a significant difference, especially in the hot, humid Pacific, where the sea temperature served to increase temperatures. The sweating and salt tablets mentioned were a good indication that things weren't much fun when running silent. It IS true that the Japanese did not develop their ASW cpabilities anywhere near the extent to which the Allies did. It's NOT true to say they were impotent - 52 subs (or whatever the exact loss figures are) is still plenty, especially given the fact that the USA deployed far fewer subs than did Germany. The biggest point is that the subs were overwhelmingly successfull in strangling Japan. I think something like 90% of shipping from mid-44 onwards failed to reach their destinations.....90%!!!! Japan received NO oil shipments in 1945. Thos examples say it all - the subs of the USA were responsible for the most successful interdiction campaign by submarine anywhere, ever. Period. So, 'easier' than the Atlantic? On balance, yes. 'Easy'? No. Less challenging? Possibly, but had plenty of challenges unique to the conditions. Done well, the sim should be excellent, interesting and challenging. Same as Atlantic? No. Is that a bad thing? Not at all.

11-01-06, 05:32 AM	#8
ook Seaman Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Poland Posts: 38 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	"Silent Victory: The U.S. Submarine War Against Japan" by Clay Blair <- the best FAQ ever. ;-)

11-01-06, 10:46 AM	#10
cmdrk Planesman Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 184 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	One thing to remember is the numbers between the Atlantic and Pacific. The number of ships and subs involved was much greater in the Atlantic which is smaller than the Pacific. The ship densities makes the Pacific numbers smaller. If the density matched the Atlantic, I suspect the tonnage sunk / subs lost to be much closer. Stealing a line from a movie, Its like comparing apples and oranges, but its all fruit. Yes the Japanese had sonar, not every escort did, but often one ship did in a convoy. They also had radar dispersed in a like manner. Other Pacific sub movies - Run Silent, Run Deep - Torpedo Run - Destination Tokyo. Older films with varying value.

11-01-06, 04:09 PM	#11
Respenus Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,169 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Well some people will say that America had it's submarine war going on really easy compared to the Germans. But as many of you have posted here, those were two different theaters, with two different enemies and two different idologies! But I'd still say that Kaleuns were the best! I like submarines. Really I do. I find them very,... attractive Both US the German subs looked alike, but you just can't beat the atmosphere on board a U-Boat! __________________

11-01-06, 11:19 PM	#13
Torplexed Let's Sink Sumptin' ! Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 5,823 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	Every nation plays to it's strengths. For the Germans it was tactical finesse and excellent small unit leadership. For the Soviets, it was sheer brute manpower. For the British it was commando raids and regimental tradition. For the USA it was overwhelming industrial output. The result was an army that had a larger tooth-to-tail ratio than any other nation. An army where a lot of leg units confiscated their own 'unofficial' motor pool. An army where a jeep built for four usually carried only two..or one. Not to mention a huge amount of pilfering and waste and stuff ending up on the black market. But considering that the United States had the 16th largest army in the world in 1940 (after Portugal's) waste in the expansion department was probably inevitable. In retrospect, I'm sure World War 2 could have been fought a lot more efficently and smartly by all sides...but unlike a simulation there was only one go at it. __________________ --Mobilis in Mobili--

11-02-06, 04:42 AM	#14
Soviet_Sharpshooter A-ganger Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 72 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	The fact the crews of US subs had to deal with hot weather isnt going to be reflected in the game, Silent Hunter 4 WILL be a easier game to play, obviously because the US did alot better in the pacific then Germany did in the Atlantic, this will allow more people to enjoy the Silent Hunter series, alot of game series do this to open up to a wider audience. Personally ill miss playing the underdogs __________________ I died in Scapa Flow

11-02-06, 04:43 AM	#15
TheSatyr Captain Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 545 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Those who think SHIV will get easier in the later stages will be in for a bit of a surprise. The Japanese will have fewer merchants to hunt down...but if they keep to historical accuracy they will A)Be mostly in convoys. and B)Have escorts up the ying-yang. In the later war years it wasn't all that uncommon for Japanese convoys to have more escorts than merchant ships. And as the war progressed the Japanese Navy did design and use DCs with 600lbs of explosives in them...those had to hurt. (Just about everybody else was using 300lbs of explosives in their DCs.). The Japanese did start the war off without worrying too much about the sub danger...which is what one could expect from a government run by the Army,but thier A/S skills did get alot better during the war.