US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[Skybird]

Trump's second impeachment defends the Constitution. Senate conviction should be next. Republican arguments against impeachment misunderstand history, the intentions of the Founding Fathers and the law.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...st-ncna1254207

Ultimately, Congress should remove and disqualify Trump from office, not simply because he is unfit, and not simply because his continuance in office represents a danger to the Republic. It should do so because he has attempted to use force to overthrow the constitutional order, and Congress should stand up, not simply for itself, but for our entire system of government. Trump has lowered the bar in many different ways during his presidency. The Senate can begin to undo some of that damage by repudiating the seditious last act of a lawless presidency.

You haver to imagine this. American NG soldiers currently are stationed inside the Capitol, armed - in order to defend it against - the president of the US and the violent mobs that he has unleashed and threaten to spread violence across the capitols in all states. Media quote De,mocratic representatives who express doubt that certain Republican "colleagues" do not want to see them getting killed. The mob has had helping hands inside the capitol, and amongst the guards and Republican representatives who opend them doors, and posed with them.

Let this sink in. American soldiers must defend the Capitol against - an American "president".


"Kill him with his own gun!" - https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/14/p...one/index.html

[vienna]

Gee,...wow,..., that is astounding...


...they found one antifa guy in a crowd of tens of thousands of Trunpettes?...


...my, my, what a smoking gun!...


...Meanwhile...:


Far-right groups received large Bitcoin payment ahead of U.S. Capitol riot: report --

https://globalnews.ca/news/7577631/u...oin-far-right/


Alt-Right Groups Received $500K in BTC Month Before Capitol Riot: Chainalysis --

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/alt-g...193126233.html


...so, one antifa, who may actually be little more than some sort of anarchist who is looking to start problems, no mater which side is involved, versus a link to foreign funds being funneled to known, organized, Neo-Nazi, white supremacist, Far-Rightist groups actively supporting a corrupt president and his administration and actively attacking US democratic institutions, such as free elections and the results of the will of the US voters, the Congress of the United States, and the the law of the land...


...yeah, I'd say one 'antifa' more than justifies turning a blind eye to the actions and intents of the Trumpettes...



...yeah,... riiight...




<O>

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by August

Oh that is SUCH a relief that you take it seriously but yet I notice after the lamented back and forth that you have no comment on the actual subject.

Uh... I think the guy is an agitator?

And what’s with the attitude? We’re both sensible adults, why can’t we have a civil conversation about politics?

[vienna]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

The headline might be a bit misleading. I think what the article is saying is that former officials are still subject to a Senate trial even if they have left office. I agree with that, there should be no such thing as a get out jail free card.

But a SCOTUS judge is very much involved in the impeachment as its the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court who presides over the Senate impeachment trial. The defendant is afforded the opportunity to have lawyers, present evidence and chance to defend himself. The Senate verdict is final without any chance of appeal.

...actually, the rule about the CJ of the SCOTUS presiding over an impeachment of a president was put in place to prevent the possibility of the VP, being of the same party as the POTUS, presiding and the process becoming more political than Constitutional/non-partisan; the CJ also presides at an impeachment of a sitting Vp since, in his role as President of the Senate, a VP could not preside over his own trial; however, it is not Constitutionally mandated a CJ has to preside over all manner of impeachments and the Senate's own rules are specific as to which officials are subject to a CJ-presided trial; the fact is, since Trump would no longer be POTUS after 20 Jan, the CJ is under no legal obligation to sit and preside:


Will Chief Justice Roberts preside at Trump’s impeachment trial? Maybe --

https://www.rollcall.com/2021/01/14/...t-trial-maybe/


...in fact, the possibility exists the President of the Senate, the VPOTUS, could legally preside over the Trump impeachment; that would, indeed, be interesting: imagine Trump's reaction to a trial where the presiding official is a Democrat, a person of color, and Gasp!, a woman...


[EDIT]: Almost forgot; you are right about having the opportunity "to have lawyers, present evidence and chance to defend himself", but even that is at the discretion of the presiding official who may, if he wishes, limit or outright ban the introduction of any, or, in some cases, all evidence or witnesses, much as was done to the House team prosecuting Trump the first time; the outcome of that O'Connell-produced kangaroo trial could very well have been vastly different if all the evidence regarding Trump's activities were allowed to see the light of day and fairly debated...





<O>

[vienna]

<O>

[Skybird]

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...ns-ncna1254339


it was there that a Capitol Police officer was murdered, other law enforcement officials were injured, a woman trying to violently breach the Speaker's Lobby was shot dead, three other protesters died, a crowd chanted to hang Vice President Mike Pence and elected representatives hid in fear. Our Capitol was desecrated.The mob action was designed to stop, if not overturn, a lawful and fair presidential election by keeping Trump in power; if it had succeeded, it would have been an unconstitutional coup.
(...)
Our democracy is under attack, and the attacker-in-chief resides for five more days in the White House — and he has made clear his intention to try to hold that office again. Duty demands that he be convicted by the Senate and, by a Senate vote, barred from ever again holding the power of the presidency. His enablers have one last chance to do the right thing or be relegated to the gallery of Trump's disgraced accomplices.
They should not be fooled that Trump will be chastened by the judgment of history. He clearly doesn't care.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by vienna

...in fact, the possibility exists the President of the Senate, the VPOTUS, could legally preside over the Trump impeachment; that would, indeed, be interesting: imagine Trump's reaction to a trial where the presiding official is a Democrat, a person of color, and Gasp!, a woman...


[EDIT]: Almost forgot; you are right about having the opportunity "to have lawyers, present evidence and chance to defend himself", but even that is at the discretion of the presiding official who may, if he wishes, limit or outright ban the introduction of any, or, in some cases, all evidence or witnesses, much as was done to the House team prosecuting Trump the first time; the outcome of that O'Connell-produced kangaroo trial could very well have been vastly different if all the evidence regarding Trump's activities were allowed to see the light of day and fairly debated...

Basically it is all ... so what!? The number one difference between an impeachment trial and a trial in a court of law is that in an impeachment the jury has already made up its mind before the thing gets started. The jury votes by political allegiance or political expedience. It doesn't matter if VP Harris or Jesus Christ presides over it the outcome will not be decided by the accused's guilt but by political loyalty. There is no better example of this than Bill Clinton's trial in the Senate.

Let the pearl clutching begin.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

Right! What am I thinking I retire soon anyway....

Well, don't be shocked if we have critical funding issues with SS before 2024.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by vienna

Gee,...wow,..., that is astounding...


...they found one antifa guy in a crowd of tens of thousands of Trunpettes?...


...my, my, what a smoking gun!...


...Meanwhile...:


Far-right groups received large Bitcoin payment ahead of U.S. Capitol riot: report --

https://globalnews.ca/news/7577631/u...oin-far-right/


Alt-Right Groups Received $500K in BTC Month Before Capitol Riot: Chainalysis --

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/alt-g...193126233.html


...so, one antifa, who may actually be little more than some sort of anarchist who is looking to start problems, no mater which side is involved, versus a link to foreign funds being funneled to known, organized, Neo-Nazi, white supremacist, Far-Rightist groups actively supporting a corrupt president and his administration and actively attacking US democratic institutions, such as free elections and the results of the will of the US voters, the Congress of the United States, and the the law of the land...


...yeah, I'd say one 'antifa' more than justifies turning a blind eye to the actions and intents of the Trumpettes...



...yeah,... riiight...




<O>

Yes Tens of thousands peaceful protestors compared to how many violent ones?



Several times now the Trump administration has offered federal assistance to mayors of cities. Including D.C. mayor Bowser prior to the MAGA protests and whats his face in Portland. But they all refused. We find out now its more than just Trumpettes involved here. Still party fanbois response is to turn a blind eye too it. Yes I saw that one Antifa insurrectionist poser was caught (so far). Why wouldn't anyone want to first collect intel and evidence of wrong doing or find out if there was more? Who was involved in the Bitcoin transaction? Why the knee jerk reaction? Why so quick to impeach? Honestly IMO If they go ahead with a Senate trial I think that will cause more harm than good. Unfortunetly I think career politicians never know when to quit, they always seem to make it about themselves.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Who cares? Just turn that spigot wide open, we'll worry about it later.

Biden’s $1.9 trillion Covid relief plan calls for stimulus checks, unemployment support and more

My question is, where in the federal budget can the money be siphoned out from with the best possible long and short term results for the American people?

The military comes to mind... but given that the PRC’s influence is rapidly spreading, and the possibility that they will be emboldened by the current divisions in US politics, perhaps now isn’t the best time for that.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by gap

Yes I know, it is just... Wikipedia, but I didn't want to quote any newspapers because of their tendency to side for one faction or the other.

I think the same holds true for Wikipedia.

From the above I get that the allegation by Democrats were not false; there actually were pro-Trump foreign interferences during the electoral campaign, and actions which could have obstructed the following investigations and finally the course of justice, even though it couldn't be proved that the President was guilty of them.

I don't think anyone disputes the fact that the Russians interfered in that election. Did it change any votes? Facebook claims that Russian-backed accounts spent approximately $100,000 on about 3,000 Facebook ads intended to spread misinformation. Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton spent a combined $81 million on the same platform.

Not being guilty by law, doesn't mean being exempt from moral and political responsibility, but let's suppose for a moment that the whole case was just bull****, an Invention by Hilary Clinton and her associates to hamper their rival.

I don't think there is any supposing to it. Clinton's opposition research doc, the Steele dossier has now been pretty much debunked. The line between Clinton, The DNC, the law firm Perkins Coie, Fusion GPS and Christopher Steele has been fairly well established. She was doing exactly what she accused Trump of doing.

Please answer the following question: what is worse, accusing a political candidate (by then the US president) and/or his campaign staff to have connived with a foreign power at brainwashing electors, or maintaining that hundreds of US officials involved in the electoral process, several Supreme Courts and the Congress itself, plotted in stealing votes from a candidate and in not giving course to his allegations?

I don't think it is a matter of which is worse. They are both bad actions taken by people who should be held to a high standard. Simply saying that one is worse than the other is in a way excusing bad behavior. And of course both sides point fingers.

Trump is out the door and I'm ok with that. He's been a disappointment and the drama has been excruciating. That being said I am still glad that Hillary Clinton is not President. The reasons are almost to numerous to list.

In am not an US Citizen and I am not in the position of saying what is anti-american and what not, but something is clear to me: with his line of conduct, President Trump is damaging the reputation of his own country, and he is jeopardizing the democracy all over the world.

I'm not a US citizen as well. And I would agree for the most part with that.

I might be biased, but I don't think the same can be said about Hilary Clinton

And that is where we part company. Respectfully. The best discription I have ever heard about the Clintons is that they are political grifters. I think it is true.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Originally Posted by u crank

Let the pearl clutching begin.

Oh, no!!! Trump will be President beyond noon, January 20th!!!

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Who cares? Just turn that spigot wide open, we'll worry about it later.

Biden’s $1.9 trillion Covid relief plan calls for stimulus checks, unemployment support and more

Oh? Were you OK with taking trillions from the middle class and giving it to the 1% with the tax bill passed in '17? The tax cuts for the middle class had sunset provisions to kick in after 2021 (I can see it now: "Biden raised my taxes!!!"), but the tax cuts for the wealthy were permanent.

[Wolferz]

Someone is at the White House to insure that Rump doesn't abscond with the furniture..

Oh. and no need to worry about the show of NG force. They might be packing weapons but they don't have a single round of live ammo. only the alphabet soup guys will be trusted with live ammo.

[Bilge_Rat]

so polls are coming out and they show Trump's support is as high as ever, 80% plus of Republicans approve of his job performance, do not believe he incited last week's riot, do not believe he should resign and are are against impeachment and vice versa for Democrats.

After 95% of Republicans, 197 out of 207, voted against impeachment in the House, it is pie in the sky to think Trump will be convicted in the Senate.

This looks increasingly like a purely political move by Democrats to please their base. One that was doomed to failure from the beginning and will backfire on Biden.

If you force GOP congressmen and Senators to take a stand, most will stand with the President so this cements even more Trump's hold on the party. Those who think this will backfire on the GOP forget that the majority of House and Senate seats are safe seats where the only thing the holder has to worry about is a primary challenge from a Trump loyalist.