Wolfpack vs Uboat -- Differences ? ? Pro's/Cons

[Ragnarokkr]

After getting some shuteye and coming back to see whats up in the thread:
AI can only be so smart and is always slaved to its directives, ergo. it cannot really act unpredictably, like a human opponent would.
I'm also reminded to quote "It is hard to make a AI that makes mistakes."


I think it would be a improvement to the game to aim the game towards a PvP element such as a Wolfpack vs. Escorts, with all but the merchants themselves being directly human controlled.
Don't get me wrong though, I think the game is fine as it stands. I only think it benefits from having both sides controlled by humans to add in the unpredictability the game needs.
Regarding the destroyers/corvettes etc; it could be done as with the uboats. One or two areas for the players, a captain, helmsman, sonarman. A captain for commands and weapons control, helmsman for engine and rudder control, sonarman for hydrophones and ASDIC.

While I say weapons control, I don't mean direct control though. I think the gun mounts and depth charges should be AI controlled but with indirect fire commands/directives given by the captain. (as in, captain directs fire by binoculars but has no direct control on aiming)

Additionally the escorts could give orders to the merchants such as evasive manouver directions, speed changes, assume column/line/box formation etc.
Though this then should be somehow balanced that the convoy cannot outright outrun the sub players to win the scenario, though this can be rebalanced after playtesting and feedback. (if the idea ever makes the cut)

This could also be expanded to the aircraft being controllable, armed with depth charges and machineguns. Also with radios for the pilot to communicate with, searchlights, flares to mark sub positions etc.

I'm not too familiar with how transparent the atlantic ocean water is, as in, could you see a sub's silhouette that is in periscope depth from say 30-150m height, or how visible the periscope would be.
But while the aircraft would not neccesarily be a remarkable threat factor (speaking in game terms) to balance out the planes not being too OP, they would add in significant pressure on the subs crew, knowing that there are planes around, and staying in periscope depth is a risk in itself.
I also remember somewhere hearing accounts that the noise from the aircraft could be heard vibrating in the sub hull, though this could be with the cold war turboprop bears...


"Aircraft in the early days of Air ASW primarily relied upon visual lookouts to detect submarines. These patrolling aircraft consisted mainly of Consolidated PBY-5 Catalina seaplanes, smaller aircraft, and various airships (or blimps). Their weapon systems were limited to guns, depth bombs, and rockets."
Technically if the devs were to add a warship "convoy" (read: carrier/battleship with escort) then it could be also sufficiently logical to have fighters/dive bombers instead of Catalinas.


I see land with a harbor. A convoy with heavy escort is barely out of the bay when the first torpedo sinks the vanguard corvette, the small airstrip near the harbor scrambles three fighter-bombers and convoy increases to flank with the escorts frantically banging the seafloor with their ASDICs while reinforcements are inbound from the port.

The wolfpack lurks about getting into position and fires off salvoes while being chased by briton warships and american planes.


EDIT; Thoughts?

[Tinfish]

Originally Posted by Ragnarokkr

I think it would be a improvement to the game to aim the game towards a PvP element such as a Wolfpack vs. Escorts, with all but the merchants themselves being directly human controlled.
Don't get me wrong though, I think the game is fine as it stands. I only think it benefits from having both sides controlled by humans to add in the unpredictability the game needs.
Regarding the destroyers/corvettes etc; it could be done as with the uboats. One or two areas for the players, a captain, helmsman, sonarman. A captain for commands and weapons control, helmsman for engine and rudder control, sonarman for hydrophones and ASDIC.

What you're essentially talking about is what SH2 and Destroyer Command was, with the difference being that multiple people play on one ship. When that game worked, it was so much fun. Unfortunately it's probably extremely dev and resource hungry to reproduce something like that.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Tinfish

What you're essentially talking about is what SH2 and Destroyer Command was, with the difference being that multiple people play on one ship. When that game worked, it was so much fun. Unfortunately it's probably extremely dev and resource hungry to reproduce something like that.

I would like to see that as the end result of Wolfpack, but even discussing it is some time away. We have to finish Wolfpack first.

SH2 and DC was a huge community success and I think Wolfpack is the perfect platform for a reboot. The Allied side would have a few human controlled escorts. One of the escort players would be the Convoy Commander and he could shift the convoy's course once a ship was attacked. Naturally, there would have to be limits to allow for balanced gameplay for U-boats and Escorts. A convoy in real life can scatter and spend 24 hours reassembling but in a 2 hour real time game I would think a single course change would be enough to make it a challenge without making it impossible for the U-boats.

[Tinfish]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

I would like to see that as the end result of Wolfpack, but even discussing it is some time away. We have to finish Wolfpack first.

SH2 and DC was a huge community success and I think Wolfpack is the perfect platform for a reboot. The Allied side would have a few human controlled escorts. One of the escort players would be the Convoy Commander and he could shift the convoy's course once a ship was attacked. Naturally, there would have to be limits to allow for balanced gameplay for U-boats and Escorts. A convoy in real life can scatter and spend 24 hours reassembling but in a 2 hour real time game I would think a single course change would be enough to make it a challenge without making it impossible for the U-boats.

Stretching my memory a bit far to a time that seems to have vanished, the implementation of interop play (I'm sure they didn't call it coop) was a community project after Ubisoft abandoned it and essentially handed over the code?
I honestly can't remember now, maybe I'm getting it mixed up? I should remember as I was one of the testers.
Once it was up and running though, there was a great response from the community and people keen to play both roles.

I do agree that this seems like the perfect platform to build a modern version.

[Pisces]

For reference: SH2/Destroyer Command Interop(eration) patch: Projekt Messerwetzer: http://www.subsim.com/ssr/p_messerwetzer.htm

Never played myself to be honest.

[blackswan40]

I remeber those Glory days the Subsim Community had to raise $10,000 for the Programmer to write the new software Projekt Messerwetzer

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by Ragnarokkr

I think it would be a improvement to the game to aim the game towards a PvP element such as a Wolfpack vs. Escorts, with all but the merchants themselves being directly human controlled.
Don't get me wrong though, I think the game is fine as it stands. I only think it benefits from having both sides controlled by humans to add in the unpredictability the game needs.

EDIT; Thoughts?

I couldn’t disagree more.

You’d have dickish human players constantly changing convoy course, speed and scattering such that you’d never get a working solution.

That’s not just unpredictability, that’s trolling.

Look at almost any multiplayer game where the gameplay isn’t sensibly constrained... you have large groups of stupid young men who’s only pleasure is screwing over other gamers (sea of thieves, rainbow siege etc).

Maybe one human controlled destroyer who can’t screw with the convoy would be Ok, but then you factor in that they’d constantly be pinging, and changing course and actively searching because as a human they’d be forewarned there’s a sub and again you’ve ruined the main gameplay loop.

MP almost always ruins games because people are selfish and ignorant, especially in a competitive arena. Co-op is better, but can still cause issues.

I don’t see a way of having MP pvp without the surface players ****ing up the game for the sub players.

[blackswan40]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal
Can you give us some ideas on how we can make it a "hunting" sim?

My Thoughts on Human Controlled Escorts V Human Controlled Uboats
The merchant ships must be controlled by the Simmulations AI following the course pree set with the merchant thats the convoy commondores
ship and all other merchants are attached to him on same heading course the job of the escorts is to stop the Uboats sinking Merchants not necessarsilarly to destroy/sink Uboats ie to protect the convoy at all costs.
Keeping the Uboats from penetrating the escort screen or keeping the Uboats head down so to speak like stopping rustlers getting your cattle.
By dropping DC'S near to the UBoat to put him off is stroke if hes about to launch his eels.
also escorts could hunt in pairs similar to escorts in GWX3 one approaches you at slow speed pining you while another does an atttack run on you then they change over.
forcing the Uboat player to turn this way and that way at speed all the time runing is batteries down.
The human escort players would have to have some sort of points system a safe convoy icon on the results screen for protecting a convoy and not loosing a single merchant in the mission even if they did not destroy any Uboats.

The Uboat players probing the Convoy defences tring to slip through a gap in the escort screen once inside the Convoy then the Uboats can target the bigest ships but you could have AI twarlers inside the convoy to spice it up
as well as the five human controlled escorts that can also weave in and out of the convoy lanes.
Also what about Q-ships small merchants with sound gear on pinging the Uboats sending that data to the escorts by in game radio messages.


So in a nutshell theres the thrill of the Hunt for both sides

[nocken]

wolfpack is a realtime. strategic sim. human player based. if you introduce pvsp. well. it will turn into a call of duty/battlefield 5. or even worse sub vs sub. let the game grow. quiet simple if you dont like it, DONT play it. from like acorns,come major oaks.

[gutted]

I would just like to point out that despite the tone of my earlier post, that i really like wolfpack. My post was basically just me dreaming about the game me and my coop bud i always wanted.

[nocken]

wasnt a dig at you gutted at all. yes your right. lets see how it progress. excellent solvent solution app. been using it. spot on, mate. alls good. mate.

[stoppro]

I am back wirh wolfpack for now,I was just over at uboat It is way to nitpicky for me right now. i don't want to dress the crew! I couldn't belive that option. such a thing as too much

[Fearless]

I’ve purchased UBoat thus far and thinking of buying WolfPack. Just don’t know whether my Laptop can handle it.

[JuanLiquid]

If you can run Uboat, you will be able to play Wolfpack without any problem. Uboat is more demanding CPU/GPU game

[FPSchazly]

Originally Posted by Elphaba

Maybe one human controlled destroyer who can’t screw with the convoy would be Ok, but then you factor in that they’d constantly be pinging, and changing course and actively searching because as a human they’d be forewarned there’s a sub and again you’ve ruined the main gameplay loop.

I generally agree with your sentiments regarding multiplayer, however, I would caveat it with the fact that that's true of multiplayer with random people. Multiplayer composed completely of a tight community/friends does not really suffer from the trolling/dumbass behavior. I feel you can also mitigate that kind of behavior largely with smart, team-oriented goals.


I've put a lot of thought into the "randomness" problem you've outlined here. We have the same issue in Dangerous Waters. Simply because we're all humans playing a multiplayer match, we 100% know enemy is out there and within reasonable range. That ruins all the mystery of true naval combat. A way to remedy this could be to have two or more convoys in a multiplayer match (or the number of convoys equals the number of U-boats plus some other number. So if you have two U-boats, you have at least three convoys.) Doing it this way, the human-controlled escorts cannot be certain there is a U-boat attacking their convoy. However, then you have the issue that some human escorts may not have anything to do. You could remedy that by having a time limit or some goal-line limit, i.e., escort the convoy safely to this point and you win.