How do SSGs/SSGNs find targets?

[Cybermat47]

I've been wondering about this. Are surface ships so noisy that they can be reliably tracked from beyond visual range? Or do SSGs/SSGNs have to use radar?

[Red_88]

Sonar don't have sufficent range for targeting, bear in mind that even the first soviet submarine launched Anti-ship cruise missle the P-6 (NATO SS-N-3) had a range of about 350km. For cueing they had long range recon aircraft like the Tu-16RM and Tu-95RTS, these aircraft could establish a datalink to submarine, and also they have a firecontrol for the missle. Early soviet SSG and SSGN also had their very own Fire Control Datalink but they have to surface to use it and to launch missles.
In the 70s a new cueing system was becoming operational, the "legenda" system. It consist of US-P SIGINT Satallites and US-A Radar-Oceanic-Reconnaissance-Satelitte RORSAT. However in the late 80s Gorbachev forbid the use of RORSATs because these satellites are powered with a nuclear reactor and posed a enviromental threat.
However the solar powered US-P system is still used today.

Sites about Tu-95RTS and Tu-16R:
http://airvectors.net/avbear.html#m4
http://airvectors.net/avtu16_2.html#m1

Site about US-A Satellite:
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/usa.htm

Site about US-P Satellite:
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/usp.htm
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/uspu.htm

[ikalugin]

Yes, ships are noisy enough to be tracked beyond visual range from a surfaced sub. The actual ranges are dependent on the conditions. In theory you could pick up stuff from hundreds of miles away in perfect conditions, but this is unlikely.

Because of the extreme ranges missiles have you indeed have to rely on external sensors for targeting if you use longer ranged stuff, but for shorter range stuff you could use passive sonar.

[Kapitan]

multitude of stations using link data systems that give target information to submarines, they can be aircraft ships satalites ground stations even inteligence operatives or another submarine.

[Mr Quatro]

Targets are always present, but the range has to be estimated and that's not good math yet. New wire guided torpedo's solve that problem by swimming out of the tube and being fed tactical target information from sonar and the conn till the wire holding is cut and the fish goes after the target with passive or active sonar.

That's for like fat juicy oil tanker targets ... warships are different due to you can hear them 50 miles, or even greater, when they are pinging and they always run around pinging looking for return signal, but that far out is not yet within their range.

Got me so far ... the captain of SSBN's and SSGN's has orders to stay as far away as they can from anything that do them harm.

SSN's are different that captain would just put a fish down your throat than run away.

Someone should make a real modern subsim with all of the new countries getting diesel boats and include the SSBN's and the SSGN's, uh?

[mapuc]

I could be wrong or remembering wrong

It was in some Nature program where some Whale science had got acces to some of the old-(forgot the word) which there were some of in the Atlantic.

(the speaker said something with)-They used some of the(stil forgot the name for these) which were laid during the Cold War by American and English subs.

Markus

[nsomnia]

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

Targets are always present, but the range has to be estimated and that's not good math yet. New wire guided torpedo's solve that problem by swimming out of the tube and being fed tactical target information from sonar and the conn till the wire holding is cut and the fish goes after the target with passive or active sonar.

That's for like fat juicy oil tanker targets ... warships are different due to you can hear them 50 miles, or even greater, when they are pinging and they always run around pinging looking for return signal, but that far out is not yet within their range.

Got me so far ... the captain of SSBN's and SSGN's has orders to stay as far away as they can from anything that do them harm.

SSN's are different that captain would just put a fish down your throat than run away.

Someone should make a real modern subsim with all of the new countries getting diesel boats and include the SSBN's and the SSGN's, uh?

I'm working on 1946-1991.

1991-2016 DLC pushig it a bit far no?

[Julhelm]

The Soviet doctrine was entirely based around tactical units such as subs and surface ships being vectored into attack position and told when to fire from central command fed by aerial and satellite reconnaisance.

[Rambler241]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Yes, ships are noisy enough to be tracked beyond visual range from a surfaced sub. The actual ranges are dependent on the conditions. In theory you could pick up stuff from hundreds of miles away in perfect conditions, but this is unlikely.

Because of the extreme ranges missiles have you indeed have to rely on external sensors for targeting if you use longer ranged stuff, but for shorter range stuff you could use passive sonar.

During the 1982 Falklands war, HMS Conqueror detected the Argentine light cruiser General Belgrano at a range of about 100 miles.

Secrets of the Conqueror: The Untold Story of Britain's Most Famous Submarine

[Kapitan]

in the 80's woods hole ocean research (where Dr Ballard works) discovered the deep sound channel.

To test the theory they dropped a series of charges in a pattern off the west coast of australia, 11 Hours later it was picked up in Bermuda on SOSUS

[Kapitan]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

The Soviet doctrine was entirely based around tactical units such as subs and surface ships being vectored into attack position and told when to fire from central command fed by aerial and satellite reconnaisance.

Not quite they had to await permission to fire from the admiral not moscow the only orders to fire would be ballistic missiles not the cruise missiles the navy had a bit more flexability than the army or air force did.