Realism- and gameplay-related hardcode fixes for SH3.EXE

[h.sie]

@Hitman: Me (and surely LGN1 too) love the current solution. If you track the convoy course in the NavMap, you can easily see it's main course.

N = 0°
O = 90°
S = 180°
W = 270°

NO = 45°
SO = 135°
SW = 225°
NW = 315°

Even an (in)accuracy / error of about 20° should be sufficient to lead the wolfpack to the right position.

[Hitman]

Well as long as you manage the game to calculate the convoy course from the TDC input, then it's OK. I just suggested the alternative in case it is easier than solving the problem of periscope bearing.

[Stiebler]

@H.sie, LGN1:

It seems that there are two potential fixes for the problem of difficulty in shadowing in good weather conditions.

The first is to alter the ability of the escorts to see long distances visually. This could be altered in the sensors files or, as Hsie has suggested, a hard-code fix. I think something will have to be done here, regardless of the second option.

The second is to provide options to the player - a realistic option (hourly signals) and an easy option (fewer signals). LGN1 has stated previously that the key variables are a) number of contact signals sent; b) time between signals.

I could easily make these user-adjustable options with the 'Options Selector'. I don't think it would be necessary to provide slider gauges for these values, as suggested originally by LGN1 (in a PM), simply a one-off 'easy' option with preset values for (a) and (b) above.

Thus when you activate the 'WolfPacks' option, you would get a child-dialog box which asks you to click on either of:
Realistic (many hourly contact reports, reduced chance of seeing a wolfpack, slow game play)
Easy (fewer contact reports at no fixed interval, [and therefore] greater chance of seeing a wolfpack, faster game play).

When stated as simply as that, I think I know which option most people would prefer. I have shadowed around ten convoys now - and the novelty of spending about half-an-hour of real-time on this has worn off. (TC=32, but falls often to TC=8 whenever a further ship from the convoy comes into view again.)

Yes, I know that HunterState=32 can be altered in its cfg file, but this is the setting I prefer for most purposes, and it cannot be altered just for shadowing.

Stiebler.

[toolsey2]

First of all h.sie and LGN1 and others thanks for this game changing mod, yesterday I tried it on a stock SH3, no more playing about with convoy this was deadly stuff, in the early morning quick surface signal then down to the depths again, Hitman please could you do a shadowing readme if possible I think I need all the help I can get.

The reason I used this mod with stock SH3 is because I was not sure how to add it to my other versions, I could use some help with installing it in NYGM and GWX please.

Toolsey

[Hitman]

The first is to alter the ability of the escorts to see long distances visually. This could be altered in the sensors files or, as Hsie has suggested, a hard-code fix. I think something will have to be done here, regardless of the second option.

I would strongly advice against hardcoding such thing. We have been suffering for too long hardcode limits before H.Sie jumped in, and as modder I certainly would prefer to adapt my own mod with an extra sensors patch by me or a 3rd party, rather than have again a hardcode limit! At most, make it optional in the dialog box for those that want to quick-play.

Hitman please could you do a shadowing readme if possible I think I need all the help I can get.

Will do once the final version of the mod is ready

Hitman with all respect, I wouldn't want less to see dialog boxes poping up asking what level of difficulty should I choose.

It remainds of some arcade style instantly, where you choose difficulty

There was no easy options in RL and of course all they were tiring.

It's up to the player. If he wants help he has to show it with patience. However I still don't like hourly radio contact requirements..

[h.sie]

Originally Posted by Hitman

I would strongly advice against hardcoding such thing. We have been suffering for too long hardcode limits before H.Sie jumped in, and as modder I certainly would prefer to adapt my own mod with an extra sensors patch by me or a 3rd party, rather than have again a hardcode limit! At most, make it optional in the dialog box for those that want to quick-play.

This I don't understand. You said that you suffered from hardcode-limits for a long time, and now you advice against hardcode changes??? What is the logic behind this?

The problem I see with conventional modding are the side-effects. I think all environments/sensor combinations are well-adjusted and mature in the meantime, and if you now change them to make shadowing possible, other situations, which worked well so far, might get worse as side-effect.

On the other hand: If there is a working env/sensor-combi that allows shadowing, why not use it? Wolfpacks could be worth a change.

[h.sie]

@PapaKilo: He means dialog boxes in the OptionsSelector. Not in game.

[makman94]

Originally Posted by h.sie

@makman

Thanks for posting the screenies of your battle.

1) I have a problem: On the one hand I agree: If there is a working sensor/environment-combination, I see no need to fit my Mod to non-working combinations (non-working here is meant only with focus on convoy shadowing). On the other hand I try hard to be compatible to all supermods and environments and don't want to stick on one certain environment. I'm not Microsoft.

2) I meant: Selective restricting sensor range only if enemy "looks" at player Uboat: Enemy is blind for the player sub if its range is more than, say, 10000m. I could also program selective sensors regarding sun position: If day: Range=12000. If night: Range=6000. BUT: This is a new project.

3) Agree: Just set at main.cfg TC=128 when you are at hunter state

4) Agree: Bad Crew fatigue behaviour also is not a strong argument for me. If it is bad for low TC (realistic play!), there is something wrong with the whole fatigue model, and I have a problem to consider that.

5) I try to make the course estimation INDEPENDENT of the periscope bearing. This current dependency was not intended. Try to fix it.

I will discuss with LGN1 about new settings and I'm sure we find a solution.

hi H.Sie,

1) no no ....i didn't meant to use the MEP AND my visual sensors but only my tweaks at visual sensors on your current environment (preferebly must be a 20km one). i think that ,generally speaking,will work ('problems' may appear during night but again ....sensors never worked correctly at any of sh series,especially during night). in ''M.E.P v3-fix pack+Sensors'' there is a pack of sensors for each supermod so it is easy to just give a try only to visual sensors .
i am also with the opinion that your mod must be indepedent from envs but , as i said, a 20km one must be the main choise.

2) .... !!! THIS is FANTASTIC news !!! one of the biggest dissapointments with sh series is exactly the non correctly working sensors ! if you can programm 'selective' sensors will be heaven .... we will be able to have then different settings during night and the whole thing will raise very high the final user's immersion !!
this project (selective sensors) will be a fantastic project H.Sie ! when you are ready to start it ...just call me to help - test where i can !

5) in fact , i like very much the way it is now ! i think it is brilliant and very comfort !user have only to input the convoy's speed at tdc dials,after that for import and the convoy's course.. user have to turn only the scope and send the message ! fast ,easy ,comfort ...brilliant ! i don't know but i like this very much

Originally Posted by h.sie

@PapaKilo: He means dialog boxes in the OptionsSelector. Not in game.

aaaah, Ok then

Makman, could you drop me a link to the info about u-boat watch crew ship spoting distance ?

[Hitman]

This I don't understand. You said that you suffered from hardcode-limits for a long time, and now you advice against hardcode changes??? What is the logic behind this?

Sorry if I worded it wrongly, I mean that right now we can modify sensors with Silent Editor easily, but if you make hardcode changes in them, then ONLY you will be able to reverse that, and people who want to update their mods or adapt them to your patches will not be able to work themselves in that. I just wanted to express that anything you hardcode might result in a "locked" feature for the rest of us. Therefore it is great when you modify things that were already "locked" in the game, but if you start modifying things that all of use could so far tweak and lock them for us, then this is a problem.

[Hitman]

The problem I see with conventional modding are the side-effects. I think all environments/sensor combinations are well-adjusted and mature in the meantime, and if you now change them to make shadowing possible, other situations, which worked well so far, might get worse as side-effect.

On the other hand: If there is a working env/sensor-combi that allows shadowing, why not use it? Wolfpacks could be worth a change.

It is perfectly possible to do that, and I myself did it for MEP3 more or less long ago (Not a perfect thing, but good enough for me). It just will involve lots of testing and a specific sensors pack for each environment and mod, but I think updating GWX, NYGM and WAC stock and then MEP and Riks environment will have 95% of users covered. I already mentioned, however, that this should be deferred to a separate thread and that IMHO it is a task to be done by 3rd party guys, and not by you H.Sie, as it is too time consuming and your efforts are better employed in your current work.

In any case, it is something only worth doing for 16k and 20k mods, as 8k mods are way too restricted to have the proper long distance shadowing working.

[h.sie]

@Hitman: Thanks. Now I understand. I agree: Hardcode-Fix only if conventional methods fail.

@Stiebler: I also thought about different options in the Selector. Thanks for that offer.

[Jaeger]

Originally Posted by Hitman

I will make a readme with a diagram explaining how to shadow a convoy and report it, so that people get it quickly

This would be huge!!! I am waiting for this!