The Way I See It

SilentOtto · 07-09-12, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julhelm

What I want to see is a proper project plan where milestones and deadlines are planned ahead, a design document that describes how the game plays and what features are and are not in, and a funding plan, be it publisher money or preorders with alpha build access. And it has to have someone in charge acting as a producer that can manage things so the project isn't killed over in-fighting between team members or losing a key member. Without this organisation, it's not going to be any more credible than the projects I listed.

Ok I think you would make a great Führer for this project. Now we only have to find some people who would want to work under your iron heel...

Ducimus · 07-09-12, 11:04 AM

Personally, i don't think we'll see any more submarine sims (not sure if this upcoming flash based game qualifies or not), and i also see a decline in "big name modding" on subsim in terms of "super mods".

I don't think many have thought about it, but a lot of the big name supermods are made by the same generation of modders on subsim. The scene that developed on SH3 might have been unique. Since then, there has been a steady decline in participation by much of this older generation , and not as many new modders are picking up the baton and moving forward.

Five years from now, half the people on subsim will still be playing SH3 on some screwed up aspect ratio, with no real headway going forward on the other titles that are more current to the technolgoy of the machines these games are being ran on. If people were smart and got together, they'd make a concerted and organized effort to move to SH4 or 5, but the likelyhood of that is remote. There's a lot of loyalty in the community to platforms (be it SH3, 4, or 5), and a lot of "Brand loyalty" to whatever brand name mod of your choosing.

Unless a fire is lit under some asses, and people stop expecting this small cadre of people to make everything for them, i think eventually, things will sort of fizzle out. People need to stop relying on the same old names to provide for them. Eventually, all these same old names will get bored, and move on to other hobbies, taking whatever knowledge they have out the door with them.

Red October1984 · 07-09-12, 11:16 AM

I agree. If a group of people got together, they could make SH4 and SH5 as good as any supermod for SH3. Take SH5 and add GWX. Wouldnt that be great. But yes. I see people complaining, I have done my share of complaining too, but why cant SH4 and 5 be as great as SH3? It isnt as if its a lost cause, I just think that people have their mind set that SH3 is the best and there will never be anything better. I say, stop thinking like that. Supermods are slowly being developed for SH3? A pretty old game. Mods exist for SH4 and 5. But has anybody sat down and tried to do a supermod for 4 and 5?

SilentOtto · 07-09-12, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I agree. If a group of people got together, they could make SH4 and SH5 as good as any supermod for SH3. Take SH5 and add GWX. Wouldnt that be great. But yes. I see people complaining, I have done my share of complaining too, but why cant SH4 and 5 be as great as SH3? It isnt as if its a lost cause, I just think that people have their mind set that SH3 is the best and there will never be anything better. I say, stop thinking like that. Supermods are slowly being developed for SH3? A pretty old game. Mods exist for SH4 and 5. But has anybody sat down and tried to do a supermod for 4 and 5?

I hope TDW (and many others!) won't need their heart pills when they read this...

It's not as if Ubi has made their games uber-modder friendly, man, he has been even working with damned disassembler to make stuff work, and then patching the exe file...

PL_Andrev · 07-09-12, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red October1984

But has anybody sat down and tried to do a supermod for 4 and 5?

Wake up, sailor! Read forum before spamming!
TMO or OM for SH4 and OH2 or MMM for SH5.

Sailor Steve · 07-09-12, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antar

TMO or OM for SH4

And RFB and GFO and FOTRS.

Red October1984 · 07-09-12, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antar

Wake up, sailor! Read forum before spamming!
TMO or OM for SH4 and OH2 or MMM for SH5.

Ok pal, we're all friends here.

I stand corrected. I dont spend much time in the 4 and 5 forums. I dont own the games, my machine isnt powerful enough. I hope i dont make anybody mad enough to need heart pills. I forgot who posted that, but, I sorry! Im just expressing the opinions i have. I have no experience with programming other than a crash course on Flash Programming i had a couple years ago and never stuck with.

Too complicated for me. All the people who dont have any experience with programming are the ones who complain. Flash Programming was hard for me. 3D game programming is probably evil torture. If you arent a programmer, you shouldnt complain because you havent tried. I have complained in the past, but the past is past. I will complain less because I kinda have an idea how hard it is. If you make an effort and get an actual product, you're farther along than me. An effort is about how far I got a couple years ago with Flash.

Julhelm · 07-09-12, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I have no experience with programming other than a crash course on Flash Programming i had a couple years ago and never stuck with.

Too complicated for me. All the people who dont have any experience with programming are the ones who complain. Flash Programming was hard for me. 3D game programming is probably evil torture.

I'd say the people who don't have any experience programming are the ones saying how easy it is and how the modders can not only fix all that which the professional devs were too incompetent to get right and even create new AAA-level U-boat hardcore sim from scratch.

Anyway, my point is a lot of the people who post on forums vastly underestimate just how much work goes into a modern sim. All of the current products have evolved over the course of more than a decade. In the case of MSFS that is 30 years of evolution. It is unrealistic to assume people working in their spare time can develop a product with the same production quality, scope and fidelity over 2-3 years, which is the window you have before your assets and tech become obsolete. I just can't see why this should be such a controversial opinion on this board.

So yes I agree with Ducimus that we aren't going to see anymore subsims (at least not indie ones) unless people lower expectations of complexity and fidelity to the point where they might accept SFP1-type game with submarines that can be done by a smaller team working fulltime.

Ducimus · 07-10-12, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julhelm

I'd say the people who don't have any experience programming are the ones saying how easy it is and how the modders can not only fix all that which the professional devs were too incompetent to get right and even create new AAA-level U-boat hardcore sim from scratch.

In college I was a CIS major because i didn't have the mathmatics to be a CS major. At the time, designing/making games was my dream. I believe that is the standard lament of an IT puke this day and age. I took several programming courses. Visual basic to start, then Java, and then to C++ doing win32 console apps, SDI with Doc/View, and other business related things like ODBC. Hell, i took the advanced programming course twice, just for fun. And then I fell into my current job because i couldn't find an entry level programming job, and all those skills (assuming I ever really had them), went away from disuse. I remember logic, but not so much the syntax. These days after 12 years in my current field, I would not put ANY OF THAT on my resume. It's a dead issue.

Anyway, my point is, when I took on making a supermod for SH4, I gained a newfound appreciation for just how much work goes into these games. On top of doing my normal job that paid money, i was doing my "modding job" that didn't pay any money. The two combined, i was sitting in a computer chair for anywhere between 16 to 18 hours a day. That is painful, and there just wasn't enough time in the day to do everything i wanted to do. Through all that, the thing is, your never REALLY editing the game. All your editing is configuration and resource files, and often enough trying to illicit a behavior the game was never coded for through said resource files.

As an aside, I will never bust my ass like i was doing, ever again. It just takes too much out of your personal life.

Julhelm · 07-09-12, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentOtto

Ok I think you would make a great Führer for this project. Now we only have to find some people who would want to work under your iron heel...

Here's a better idea:

You find me the funding, and I'll hire you a bunch of competent people to do the job fulltime. That's the only way large, ambitious projects like coding hardcore sims from scratch can be done.

Don't believe me? How many AAA-level indie/community sims not based on a commercially available base have released so far?

And yes, you really do need a führer to manage big projects and make the tough decisions if you want it to succeed. That's kind of a no-brainer.

SilentOtto · 07-09-12, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julhelm

Here's a better idea:

You find me the funding, and [...] That's kind of a no-brainer.

ftfy

07-09-12, 11:16 AM	#3
Red October1984 Airplane Nerd Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 6,241 Downloads: 115 Uploads: 0	I agree. If a group of people got together, they could make SH4 and SH5 as good as any supermod for SH3. Take SH5 and add GWX. Wouldnt that be great. But yes. I see people complaining, I have done my share of complaining too, but why cant SH4 and 5 be as great as SH3? It isnt as if its a lost cause, I just think that people have their mind set that SH3 is the best and there will never be anything better. I say, stop thinking like that. Supermods are slowly being developed for SH3? A pretty old game. Mods exist for SH4 and 5. But has anybody sat down and tried to do a supermod for 4 and 5? __________________

07-09-12, 11:04 AM	#2
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Personally, i don't think we'll see any more submarine sims (not sure if this upcoming flash based game qualifies or not), and i also see a decline in "big name modding" on subsim in terms of "super mods". I don't think many have thought about it, but a lot of the big name supermods are made by the same generation of modders on subsim. The scene that developed on SH3 might have been unique. Since then, there has been a steady decline in participation by much of this older generation , and not as many new modders are picking up the baton and moving forward. Five years from now, half the people on subsim will still be playing SH3 on some screwed up aspect ratio, with no real headway going forward on the other titles that are more current to the technolgoy of the machines these games are being ran on. If people were smart and got together, they'd make a concerted and organized effort to move to SH4 or 5, but the likelyhood of that is remote. There's a lot of loyalty in the community to platforms (be it SH3, 4, or 5), and a lot of "Brand loyalty" to whatever brand name mod of your choosing. Unless a fire is lit under some asses, and people stop expecting this small cadre of people to make everything for them, i think eventually, things will sort of fizzle out. People need to stop relying on the same old names to provide for them. Eventually, all these same old names will get bored, and move on to other hobbies, taking whatever knowledge they have out the door with them.