[REL] Open Horizons II

[Trevally.]

Hi Vecko

Yes I agree that this tonnage bar problem is a real issue and can only be fixed by Ubi - so it won't be fixed

I think the best solution is to rewrite the campaign goals.
OHII will progress without the tonnage bar, but will only do so when timed limits run out. This is ok for the first missions in each campaign, but by the time you get to the end stage of each one - you will run out of time.

To fix this issue, each campaign should be adjusted to be more time set and thus tonnage will not matter.
To achieve this each objective should be time set with one (hidden) tonnage goal that is impossible to get and thus forcing the campaign to use time as a means of advancement.
This will result in each objective being failed. A work around could be that the last objective in each campaign gives enough victory points to offset the fails and then still get a victory as you progress to the next campaign (stage)

[Trevally.]

For users of twitter

Here is a good scapaflow related feed - worth a look

https://twitter.com/Ness_Battery

Ness Battery
@Ness_Battery FOLLOWS YOU
A coast battery which guarded Scapa Flow, Orkney, former home of the British Fleet.
Guided tours: 07759 857298
Live-tweeting Orkney wartime events.

[gap]

Hi Capt. Trevally,
glad to see you around!

Whenever you get time for it, please have a look at my considerations and a bunch of questions regarding any future OHII changes possibly addressing the tonnage bar problem:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=190

I posted them in the tonnage bar bug thread as the follow up of a conversation I and Vecko started there, but they probably belong more to OH's thread. I am following the whole OHII-tonnage bar discussion with high interest, and I would appreciate any feedback by you as well as by Vecko on my Hamletic doubts.

gap off

[Trevally.]

Hi Gap and Vecko

In the campaign, Gap is correct, there are few ways to pass an objective. In fact there are only two ways.
First is to sink tonnage/ship
Second is to escort a unit form point A to point B
The campaign will only advance with a pass if these are achieved.

An objective can continue to the next one with a fail.
Fail is to pass the preset time limit without getting a pass (from above)

So without tonnage bar we can only progress in the campaign by failing to pass objective.

Vecko is correct that we could still open up all or most of the objective so the player can pick between them and then patrol to area (remove achievement requirements)
Each return to port would then allow the player to pick that objective again or to pick another.

If the date limits for each objective is carefully set the campaign can progress following history with objective appearing and disappearing on the main campaign map within the bunker.

At the end of each campaign stage the player will not have achieved any victory point and when the final time limit for the campaign is reached the player will advance to the next campaign stage. They will however get the campaign fail screen picture (this could be edited to something else - perhaps a review on the war progress). They will also be told that they have failed every objective set.
I am not sure if it is possible to remove of edit this report.

[Trevally.]

looking at the option of setting the .cfg file to " is complete=true" I think will only lock out that objective and thus prevent any missions (patrol area) from being issued.

[vdr1981]

Originally Posted by Trevally.

looking at the option of setting the .cfg file to " is complete=true" I think will only lock out that objective and thus prevent any missions (patrol area) from being issued.

True, but again if you take a look in my example of cfg file you'll see that campaign selected to "true" is Skapa Flow which will player select only once... Far more important achievement from that mission is one rating point that will player earn from capital ship sinking than one value point... The goal is to give to the player with tonnage bar issue (or anyone else) one value point so he can trigger campaign ending when date of finall objective is reached and as far as I know this is the easiest and only solution.

[vdr1981]

Originally Posted by Trevally.

Second is to escort a unit form point A to point B

Interesting, can you elaborate this a bit more? Can we put it to good use?

Originally Posted by Trevally.

Vecko is correct that we could still open up all or most of the objective so the player can pick between them and then patrol to area (remove achievement requirements)
Each return to port would then allow the player to pick that objective again or to pick another.
If the date limits for each objective is carefully set the campaign can progress following history with objective appearing and disappearing on the main campaign map within the bunker.

Exactly my point ! I remember that WA campaign was players favorite , probably one of the reasons is because it offers multiple area of operations at the same time...

Originally Posted by Trevally.

They will however get the campaign fail screen picture (this could be edited to something else - perhaps a review on the war progress). They will also be told that they have failed every objective set.
I am not sure if it is possible to remove of edit this report.

This is the only side effect and IMO it's not problem at all. In any case it's small price to pay for people with tonnage bar stuck issue. "You suck Captain" message can be modded in something more apropriate, we only have to find the file from where that message is "pulled" of...

What's more important is that player should be noted that he must be in the patrol when final date is reached. Probably, one notice in the readme file or in the first post of OH thread will do the trick...

Actually I'm playing the campaign with suggested changes and without arcade tonnage bar for some time now and I must say I think that I'm experiencing OHII in a full power and the campaign it self feels much more dynamic. You should know also that I've never experienced tonnage bar issue and my tonnage is properly registered always...

[vdr1981]

Originally Posted by gap

Hi Capt. Trevally,
glad to see you around!

Whenever you get time for it, please have a look at my considerations and a bunch of questions regarding any future OHII changes possibly addressing the tonnage bar problem:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=190

I posted them in the tonnage bar bug thread as the follow up of a conversation I and Vecko started there, but they probably belong more to OH's thread. I am following the whole OHII-tonnage bar discussion with high interest, and I would appreciate any feedback by you as well as by Vecko on my Hamletic doubts.

gap off

Hey Gap,
I read you post but I really wouldn't go that far...I fail to see why do you think that removing tonnage bar will make a player less interested in sinking ships? That bar has never been present in SH series and I never noticed that captains in GWX or OM sail the campaign just for sightseeing...
On the other hand, if someone want to play OHII only for sightseeing, no problems there also. Player's rating will after some time become so low that eventually retirement offer will be displayed at some point and that will be it (any patrol without tonnage will give you 1 negative point)...

Regarding tonnage bar, it is really not "sour grapes" at all, it's thing that distracts players attention to that level that he eventually cant enjoy OHII. Add to that tonnage bur bug and the player will eventually ragequit failing to see that OHII is much more then "sink two ships in Danzing bay"...

Just take look at this guy, he's desperately trying to fill that bar thing... This may be the stock campaign but it's the same with OHII. When player sees half filled bar he is prepared to do all kind of things just to fill it up, not knowing that real carrier progress is depending of completely other things...

Those things are:
Promotional points for the crew - secondary patrol missions, spy infiltration ect...
Points for new equipment - number of sunken ships/tonnage from anywhere in the world
New sub offer - Rating points gained by sinking capital ships and tankers anywhere in the world

[masd]

Hi Trevally
Just to let you know about something that happened on my patrol, on 1 March 1940 i've received a radio message informing that MV Bessel is available for resupply in Vigo until December 1941. Gap told me in a diferent thread this ship is only available after june 40, i don't see the MV Bessel on the map like the MV Thalia, so the message was sent to early.

[gap]

Originally Posted by vdr1981

Hey Gap,
I read you post but I really wouldn't go that far...I fail to see why do you think that removing tonnage bar will make a player less interested in sinking ships? That bar has never been present in SH series and I never noticed that captains in GWX or OM sail the campaign just for sightseeing...

...

Regarding tonnage bar, it is really not "sour grapes" at all, it's thing that distracts players attention to that level that he eventually cant enjoy OHII. Add to that tonnage bur bug and the player will eventually ragequit failing to see that OHII is much more then "sink two ships in Danzing bay"...

That's not my point. I am not really worried about that bar, but about sunk tonnage not being taken into account even in minimal part. I make myself clear. The meaning of dynamic campaign to me is:

a certain degree of randomness + your action making at least a little difference on how your career will evolve.

I am seeing sunk tonnage as a measure of our success. Provided that (as far as we fulfill some minimum requirements) a basic set of campaigns/objectives are always available during the whole campaign, the more tonnage we sink the more opportunities should open up in campaign (i.e. new and more challenging/eminent objectives and campaigns to choose from). Indeed tonnage required to access them should be reasonable and hidden from the player. Keeping them hidden, the way they are in OHII campaign, and removing the damn tonnage bar from our screen, plus some of the campaign adjustments suggested by you (i.e. opening up from the beginning most, but not all, of the campaign objectives, and widening their duration) should be enough to cure the feeling of frustration rightly developed by the average player when he notices that part of his tonnage is not recorded, and his career is getting stuck. As far as we don't see it, part of our tonnage getting "lost" could be considered as acceptable, or even as a feature, adding randomness to the tonnage requirements of each objective. On the other hand, tonnage not being considered at all (due to campaign changes going in that sense), or not being recorded at all (due to the damn bug), to me is not a feature, but a lack of feature. That's what I meant when a was talking about "sour grapes".

Originally Posted by vdr1981

On the other hand, if someone want to play OHII only for sightseeing, no problems there also. Player's rating will after some time become so low that eventually retirement offer will be displayed at some point and that will be it (any patrol without tonnage will give you 1 negative point)...

That's good. All the respect for unlucky captains, but there is no space for idlers here!

Originally Posted by vdr1981

When player sees half filled bar he is prepared to do all kind of things just to fill it up, not knowing that real carrier progress is depending of completely other things...

Those things are:
Promotional points for the crew - secondary patrol missions, spy infiltration ect...
Points for new equipment - number of sunken ships/tonnage from anywhere in the world
New sub offer - Rating points gained by sinking capital ships and tankers anywhere in the world

Of course I am aware that there ways to measure our success in campaign other than tonnage, and I am glad they are there. Can you confirm that the features you described above are unaffected by the tonnage bar bug?

Originally Posted by Trevally.

In the campaign, Gap is correct, there are few ways to pass an objective. In fact there are only two ways.
First is to sink tonnage/ship
Second s to escort a unit form point A to point B

Talking about the second type of objective, I think it is underexploited in OHII campaign. Have you ever considered adding some escort objectives/missions, along the lines of my researches abstracted in the following old posts?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...postcount=2227
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...postcount=2241

Originally Posted by Trevally.

The campaign will only advance with a pass if these are achieved.

An objective can continue to the next one with a fail.
Fail is to pass the preset time limit without getting a pass (from above)

So without tonnage bar we can only progress in the campaign by failing to pass objective.

Vecko is correct that we could still open up all or most of the objective so the player can pick between them and then patrol to area (remove achievement requirements)
Each return to port would then allow the player to pick that objective again or to pick another.

If the date limits for each objective is carefully set the campaign can progress following history with objective appearing and disappearing on the main campaign map within the bunker.

What about:

hiding the tonnage bar from screen once and for all, as it was brillantly achieved by Vecko!

• Lowering (or rising for that matter) the tonnage requirement of all the objectives to reasonable figures, even considering that some of our tonnage achievements wont be recorded in campaign due to the illfamed bug. Passing an objective shouldn't be necessarily "easy", but it shouldn't be impossible either. Some wartime statistics might offer more than one clue on what could be considered, over the time span and in the scenario of each objective, a fairly good tonnage achievement. A little bit over the real average should be enough.
• Picking two or three objectives from each campaign, opening them up and widening their duration so that they will cover the whole duration of the campaign. They should be chosen so to represent the most common orders assigned to the average u-boat captain for each campaign, and they should ensure that, even if we don't accomplish any tonnage requirement, our career will still go on with orders to accomplish. Whenever possible, a generous overlapping among the chosen objectives should ensure a good level of non-linearity.
• Making the remaining objectives accessible only on passing the tonnage requirements of the "basic" objectives. They should represent tasks and duties which only "elite" captains would have been assigned to due to their proven qualities. Of course the player wouldn't know which campaigns were triggered by time and which ones due to his achievements in campaign (you should hide the relative information on OH's thread using the spoiler tag). No mention of tonnage or small iron crosses on the map. He will only know that some new orders have finally become available.

What do you think? Is it even feasible?

Originally Posted by Trevally.

At the end of each campaign stage the player will not have achieved any victory point and when the final time limit for the campaign is reached the player will advance to the next campaign stage. They will however get the campaign fail screen picture (this could be edited to something else - perhaps a review on the war progress). They will also be told that they have failed every objective set.
I am not sure if it is possible to remove of edit this report.

Correct me if I am wrong: in order to access some campaigns we need to score a total victory in the previous campaign. It is: passing all of its objectives by sinking the required tonnage or by escorting the designed unit from point A to point B. Making some or all of its missions impossible to pass, would render a total victory impossible, thus requiring the opening up of all the available campaigns by time (no total victory required). Is this correct?

If so I would rather prefer the old system, where the player is rewarded for his good result with the possibility to take part in some key-campaigns which would have been closed by default (as he was given the chance of choosing his next flotilla)... This setup would fit better my definition of "dynamic campaign".

[THEBERBSTER]

Hi Guys

I would just like to chip in with what I find quite frustrating.

Why some ships count and others do not in the objective even though all are recorded in the Captains Log.

This can give a false impression that the tonnage bar is not working especially when in the designated patrol area.

My argument for what it is worth is if for example, if my patrol orders are to go to the South Western Approaches and I sink a ship with 2 torpedoes off the British East Coast on my way to the patrol area that tonnage does not count.

I am now 2 torpedoes less for my patrol area where those torpedoes may well have counted towards the objective.

I still need to carry out my patrol orders and complete my South Western Approaches objective as I need the Victory Point/s to go towards completing the Total Germany Campaign.

Peter

[kevinsue]

Originally Posted by THEBERBSTER

Hi Guys

I would just like to chip in with what I find quite frustrating.

Why some ships count and others do not in the objective even though all are recorded in the Captains Log.

This can give a false impression that the tonnage bar is not working especially when in the designated patrol area.

My argument for what it is worth is if for example, if my patrol orders are to go to the South Western Approaches and I sink a ship with 2 torpedoes off the British East Coast on my way to the patrol area that tonnage does not count.

I am now 2 torpedoes less for my patrol area where those torpedoes may well have counted towards the objective.

I still need to carry out my patrol orders and complete my South Western Approaches objective as I need the Victory Point/s to go towards completing the Total Germany Campaign.

Peter

There are a couple of things that may help with this problem. First would be to add a bit more info on the map intel. Like for instance, if the mission required you to specifically sink five tankers, "Tankers are first priority" or such could be added to refine slightly the actual mission objective. The player has no idea that he has to sink five tankers unless they delve into the config files etc. Therefore he uses up all his ammo sinking ships that don't add points and progress the tonnage bar.

[Text]Campaign.tsr
Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 3.FurtherInfo=British manufacturing is suffering. The tommies now have to gather war material from their allies. Tanks, planes, weapons and ammunition are brought by sea. With the fall of France and our change of bases to the Bay of Biscay, the British have shifted main convoy traffic to the North Western Approaches. Sinking as many of them as possible may just give us the edge.
Campaign.Title=HAPPY TIMES
Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 1.Name=ATLANTIC AIR GAP
Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.Name=STRATEGIC SUPPLIES
Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 3.Name=WESTERN APPROACH
Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 1.FurtherInfo=As an island nation, the British are highly dependent on imported goods taken by ship from the colonies to the mainland. Hunting and sinking the ships carrying war materials will hit them where it hurts the most. Of course the enemy knows this and the ships are heavily protected, often placed in the middle of convoys. U-boat operations in the Mid Atlantic will give us an opportunity to attack without the threat from coastal air cover.
Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 3.PersObj 1.Description=Patrol the Western Approach area
Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.FurtherInfo=The British war machine can't function properly without stocks of oil and iron ore. They desperately need these to replace materiel lost in France and keep their army moving. The Irish Sea is a key route for tankers taking refined oil from the South Coast to the major factories in the North of England. Any disruption to this supply will hamper manufacturing, throughout the North of England. ....ADD..."Tankers are first priority"
Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1.Description=Patrol the South Western Approach
Campaign.Description=Following the fall of France, Britain is alone. Now, the U-boats have gained direct access to the Atlantic. The French bases put us 450 miles closer to the vital shipping lines that we are aiming for. This opens up new and more profitable hunting grounds, farther than the British can afford to escort their convoys, and also allows us to stay longer times on patrol. We are entering a new phase of the War at Sea.
Campaign.CampObj.Name=
Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 1.PersObj 1.Description=Patrol the North Atlantic

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 3]
ObjectiveID=HT_Strategic_Supplies
Name=Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 3.Name
MapZone=Strategic_Supplies
ValuePointsProvided=2
FurtherInfo=Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 3.FurtherInfo
StartDate=19400601
EndDate=19410301
IsCompleted=false
IsFailed=false
IsUnlocked=true
AssocMissionsActive=
AssocMissionsCompleted=
ObjActivationAchievements=OBJ War Supplies

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 3.PersObj 1]
PersObjType=0
Name=Sink_5_oil_tankers
Description=Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 3.PersObj 1.Description
RelatedMapLocations=Area_SS,Line_Great_Circle
IsCompleted=false

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 3.PersObj 1.Amount]
IsTonnage=false
Tonnage=0
NumOfShips=5

Secondly...the target types, as listed in the config below are restricted to twelve types for this particular mission. I'm unsure as to whether certain units that have been imported into SH5 are not recognised as valid targets. It may be possible to get a list of ALL unit "type" numbers and add them to the target list (as per the highlighted orange target list below) of every mission in the campaign. That way any ship sunk would register on the progress bar of the mission. The way the particular mission is below, there are only 12 valid target types. Anything not listed will not register as progress.

I haven't as yet spent a lot of time and delved into the real "guts" of this game so this is definitely a very uneducated idea....

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2]
ObjectiveID=TG_Norway_Invasion
Name=Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.Name
MapZone=NorwayInvasion
ValuePointsProvided=3
FurtherInfo=Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.FurtherInfo
StartDate=19400101
EndDate=19400411
IsCompleted=false
IsFailed=false
IsUnlocked=true
AssocMissionsActive=
AssocMissionsCompleted=
ObjActivationAchievements=

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1]
PersObjType=0
Name=Attack_ships_in_Narvik_waters
Description=Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1.Description
RelatedMapLocations=Area_Narvik,Line_Norway_Invasi on2
IsCompleted=false

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1.Amount]
IsTonnage=false
Tonnage=0
NumOfShips=5

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1.CrtAmount]
IsTonnage=false
Tonnage=0
NumOfShips=0

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1.TargetType 1]
Type=102
TargetType=1

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1.TargetType 2]
Type=108
TargetType=1

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1.TargetType 3]
Type=103
TargetType=1

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1.TargetType 4]
Type=101
TargetType=1

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1.TargetType 5]
Type=4
TargetType=1

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1.TargetType 6]
Type=11
TargetType=1

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1.TargetType 7]
Type=7
TargetType=1

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1.TargetType 8]
Type=6
TargetType=1

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1.TargetType 9]
Type=8
TargetType=1

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1.TargetType 10]
Type=9
TargetType=1

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1.TargetType 11]
Type=3
TargetType=1

[Campaign.CampObj.MacroObj 2.PersObj 1.TargetType 12]
Type=10
TargetType=1

[vdr1981]

Originally Posted by gap

Of course I am aware that there ways to measure our success in campaign other than tonnage, and I am glad they are there. Can you confirm that the features you described above are unaffected by the tonnage bar bug?

Confirmed...

Originally Posted by gap

If so I would rather prefer the old system, where the player is rewarded for his good result with the possibility to take part in some key-campaigns which would have been closed by default (as he was given the chance of choosing his next flotilla)... This setup would fit better my definition of "dynamic campaign".

I understand you perfectly Gap, you wish more if-then dependencies which is OK and that's exactly how OHII is formed now. Successful captains will "unlock" more battle areas sooner, and even two campaigns are reserved for captains who achieve total victory in previous campaigns...

But you're forgetting something , this system just wont work for people with tonnage issue and even people without this bug will experience certain issues because of campaign options limitations. Those are (I'll repeat them one more time) losing all tonnage dependable objectives/mission if player fails to score the first one and if date is skipped in the bunker and sudden campaign end in the middle of the action if tonnage objective of last mission if achieved earlier (I was astonished when I first saw this, I just couldn't believe)...

Right now we're moving away from the topic... My initial suggestion was not intended to be a call for completely new and reworked OHII campaign . The main goal is to allow people with tonnage issue to play and enjoy OHII as much as possible. In my initial post I showed you that this is possible with only few minor changes in campaign.cfg, nothing more...

Campign.cfg file which you see on top of this page is tested right now by Sjizzle and few others people with tonnage issue and hopefully we'll here their opinion too...

[Kumando]

Doesnt this tutorial by THEBERSBSTER solve the tonnage bar problem?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=188

[THEBERBSTER]

No it does not solve the problem it just makes it a bit more bearable.
Peter