Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Redwine

Provoking is needed when they are cruising above the "Speed factor" value.

If they are cruising at 24 knots, and pasive sensor has a Speed factor of 15 or 20, they do not hear you.

....

you need to test in missions where the DD's are not cruising at those speeds-- ie a normal convoy escort mission--

and you need to ask the question why a DD would be cruising at high speed? if it's a hunter killer it will be relying on it's radar for initial contact--if it's a fast taskforce escort then the taskforce is relying on it's speed to keep u-boats at bay--

this is why i test in a campaign patrol-- it's a pain in the neck some-times but i get to see the results in the "wild" as it were

//this is exaclty the same method i used for testing DES-5 for SH2--

if you increase the speed factor even slightly you end up with corvettes and armed patrol escorts with top speeds lower than the maximum sensor speed- and they become uber- if you lower it you will get better results most likely-- but in order to see them you'll have to test against convoy escorts

if you test in a mission where you start susbmerged and allready near the shipping- you don't give the DD's or you self a chance to go thru the normal detection routines

a fast moving hunter killer group for example--in normal gameplay you don't know it's there untill you get a "radar signals detected" message or similar (or happen to be lucky and submerged at the time)

so it starts running it's normal detection routines etc
if you know where it is before you start the test and start submerged
then it gives results that won't be reliable in normal gameplay

[glenno]

I have found in 1943 i have to dive between approx , roughly 150 mts and occasionally 230 mts to escape from DDs . (Rub 1.45) . Sometimes i have to stay at this depth silent with engines off for around 4 game hours or more for them to give up . I have always been able to escape . Hope this helps in some way .

[Txema]

This speed factor is.... i think so.... the responsible for the random behavior in missions.

My question is ?

It is correct to rise up the Speed Factor too much ?
Wich was in real life the maximun speed at wich DDs can use the pasive sensor without being affected by background noise ?

You can find the answer, at least for the active sonar, in the following page:

http://www.uboat.net/allies/technical/asdic.htm

The transmitter (sound) head extended beneath the ship, and was encased in a large metal done to minimize the noise of the water rushing past the ship while at moderate speed. This dome was filled with water, through which the sound passed, although this water was stationary and acted almost like a bumper. Noise level remained relatively low at moderate speeds, but anything above 18 knots resulted in too much noise and good contacts were difficult to find. The same results also resulted from bad weather when the ships were rolling, pitching and heaving.

It seems we can not increase the speed factor...

Txema

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by CB..

if you increase the speed factor even slightly you end up with corvettes and armed patrol escorts with top speeds lower than the maximum sensor speed- and they become uber- if you lower it you will get better results most likely-- but in order to see them you'll have to test against convoy escorts

if you test in a mission where you start susbmerged and allready near the shipping- you don't give the DD's or you self a chance to go thru the normal detection routines

a fast moving hunter killer group for example--in normal gameplay you don't know it's there untill you get a "radar signals detected" message or similar (or happen to be lucky and submerged at the time)

so it starts running it's normal detection routines etc
if you know where it is before you start the test and start submerged
then it gives results that won't be reliable in normal gameplay

Understand, the matter is i put my aim into those Ubber DDs, the only mission i have with them is that U-505, i will attemp to edit it to start in surface.

But any way i will still attempting to discover if it is posible to trigger their attack with no visual or radar alert.

In the files i am testing now, i obtain good aproaching, plus i have now good Noise factor, when there is an alone DDs the threat alert become red often, but when there are 5, it change between different levels of green, and become red not often, i think so they are disturbing them selves by their own noise.

Attacks runs, become not too often, but when happens they are enought precise.

The only bad points in my file now are two things, is still hard for them to start normal attack routine without radar or visual alert, and, if i adjust the values to be hard but not imposible to evade the U-505 mission DDs, the early DDs become a little bit easy.

Originally Posted by glenno

I have found in 1943 i have to dive between approx , roughly 150 mts and occasionally 230 mts to escape from DDs . (Rub 1.45) . Sometimes i have to stay at this depth silent with engines off for around 4 game hours or more for them to give up . I have always been able to escape . Hope this helps in some way .

I think so in real life :hmm: , may was so dificoult to stay 4 hours with engines stopped. They must to flood and blow tanks contantly to maintain depth.

Originally Posted by Txema

You can find the answer, at least for the active sonar, in the following page:

http://www.uboat.net/allies/technical/asdic.htm

It seems we can not increase the speed factor...

Txema

Thanks , it is true, but then a high speed group can pass over us without detect us. But looking you text it was a real life limitation.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Redwine

The only bad points in my file now are two things, is still hard for them to start normal attack routine without radar or visual alert, and, if i adjust the values to be hard but not imposible to evade the U-505 mission DDs, the early DDs become a little bit easy.

that's the same issue i'm worried about allso--being able to attack a convoy with little response from the escorts is pretty dull!

[caspofungin]

@redwine

what noise factor are you using?

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

@redwine

what noise factor are you using?

I am using 1.5 now, raising up to this value is when i note the DDs are disturbing by their own propeller noise when they are many in a small surface, plus i note launching 4 or 5 decoys together, it give me a little more chance to move away.

Sure, this effect may be due a combination with my other settings.

But aperently it make them a liittle deaf when they are alone, i am not sure, need more tests o many difrent missions.

[caspofungin]

well, i'm stuck.

try as i might, i can't get escorts to pick me up at any significant range w/ their hydrophones, >1.4k w/ asdic, and i can't get them to use asdic abaft of 90 degrees.

noise factor -- lowering it allows the escorts to pick you up farther away, but then silent running has no benefits, as they can still hear you relatively far away. still haven't found a way for dc explosions to "deafen" escorts, either.

anyone making any progress?

[Txema]

still haven't found a way for dc explosions to "deafen" escorts

I think this is really the main realism problem of the simulation... If it were posible to find a way to make the ships loose contact while the DC are exploding, then the simulation would be really improved... Any clues????

I am not worried about the active sonar having a Maximun possible Bearing of 90 degrees.... it seems that irl they only sweeped the sonar around the frontal area... you have to take into account that an active sonar sweep took quite a lot of time.

Regarding the hydrophones, as it is well known they were much more effective in the submarines than in the ships. The effectiveness of the hydrophones increase dramatically if you operate them at an appropriate depth. Since the ships could only operate on the surface, the hydrophones were only a secondary detection system for them.

So, from my point of view, the main problem we have is that the DC explosions don´t make the ships loose contact with your submarine... Any ideas on how to solve this problem?

Txema

[Txema]

Sorry, double post.

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

well, i'm stuck.

try as i might, i can't get escorts to pick me up at any significant range w/ their hydrophones, >1.4k w/ asdic, and i can't get them to use asdic abaft of 90 degrees.

noise factor -- lowering it allows the escorts to pick you up farther away, but then silent running has no benefits, as they can still hear you relatively far away. still haven't found a way for dc explosions to "deafen" escorts, either.

anyone making any progress?

Same problem here, if i adjust at a aceptable level a mission, they has a reduced active range. Any way it is not important, we dont need a real setting, we need a real behavior.

When i adjust good values to make mission playable, they never use the active beyond as much 1.5km, many times below this vlue as a 1 km, wich was real for most part of the war....... active sensor effective use was from 800m at early times up to as much 1500/1800m at later times of war.

May be DC has into their files a way to adjust their noside level, may be due a bubble level or some thing.

Gouldjg discoverd where are the Decoys codified, i ask him above but not response.

Why it is important ?

When i adjust the files to have a "hard but not imposible" U-505 mission, the early DDs become easy to evade.

If i adjust files so early DDs a little bit hard....... U-505 become a nightmare.

The addition of noisy decoys at later war time may be a help to balance it.

Gouldjg ! .... where are you man ! Plese help ! :rotfl:

The other way may be, to determine wich sensors are used at later war times and reduce only its capabilities .......

Here there is some problems, we have a specified setting for each sensor, but we need to know wich one is mounted on Ubber DDs.

Another problem is, we have a specified setting for each sensor....but we have a generic setting too.

Wich is the function of this generic settings as Hydrophones and Sonar ?

We have each specified type below, why are they there then ?



As commented above, rising up the noise factor up to 1.5 i am sure to launch 4 or 5 decoys at same time helps you to move away of 5 Ubber DDs in u-505 mission.

The problem is with this value they become a little bit deaf in other situations. :hmm:

Originally Posted by Txema

I am not worried about the active sonar having a Maximun possible Bearing of 90 degrees.... it seems that irl they only sweeped the sonar around the frontal area... you have to take into account that an active sonar sweep took quite a lot of time.

Regarding the hydrophones, as it is well known they were much more effective in the submarines than in the ships. The effectiveness of the hydrophones increase dramatically if you operate them at an appropriate depth. Since the ships could only operate on the surface, the hydrophones were only a secondary detection system for them.

So, from my point of view, the main problem we have is that the DC explosions don´t make the ships loose contact with your submarine... Any ideas on how to solve this problem?

Txema

Dont worry about the 90* degree active beam.......

I have set now an active beam of only 4* , 2* left, 2* right.......
Plus i made a deaf zone into pasive sensor...... i set

Min Bearing =15

it is a 30* deaf zone at front of the bow....

They catch me and kill me

Those extrange settings make them a little bit unprecise when they attack from the sides, but when attack from the back or front they still lethal :hmm:

With a only 4* active beam only !!!


Plus i note as mentioned before.... i run a determined mission, like Barham, Happy Times, U-505, Royal Flush....... and it looks so good, i says "done", then i run the same mission another time, and it become so easy, and then run the same mission another time, with same file settings and it become extremelly lethal.........


I ask a new time .....

May be posible there is something in the game introducing a random factor ?

[HEMISENT]

I received a PM from Gouldjg a couple days ago.
He is out for a few days on a work related issue. Should be returning soon.

[CB..]

here's an additional point--

i just ran another campaign patrol
found a convoy in medium weather- slightly choppy seas--
and found that i was "undetectable" even at close range by the DD's
i sank some ships reloaded at ahead standard along side the convoy at around 3,000 metres from an escort (they were so sensitive in the previous patrol that this would have been deadly)
then sank some more--lol

i know the sea conditions do effect the DD's sensors but i had reduced this effect by half in the sim.cfg--

but here's the argument illustrated regarding the DD's dumbness

i added airsupport to some of the DD's a while ago--
and every time i torped a merchant a group of aircraft would instantly appear and bombard the place with DC's--where-as the DD's just acted like nothing was happenning and remain stubbornly in their normal escort locations--

i mean even tho i was submerged (at 25 metres each time) and the aircraft had no contact to attack they still "had a go" and attacked more or less randomly in the general area--so why didn't the DD's do the same thing---surely they should adopt a search pattern if nothing else---if the DD's had adopted some sort of search pattern it's pretty certain that sooner or later one would have randomly wandered close enough to pick me up (if i stayed close to the convoy to attack again)

once detected it's a different problem altogether--why do they need to detect you before commencing a search pattern?
when it's obvious your there after a ship gets torped?

the aircraft didn't need any prompting--

there's only so much you can do about this sort of stuff with-out having a better picture of how the AI is actually working

i noticed the generic AI sensor stuff too Red'-- wonder if theyre's any relevance to it?

the whole thing is incredibly complex given the weather date uber and dumb DD's it'sgoing to be next to impossible to come up with somthing that works well gameplay wise in a full campaign--mainly because the AI doesn't adapt to the sensor changes or weather conditions--we got a dynamic campaign out of the Dev's and fair do's for that - what is needed these days is dynamic AI- AI that adapts it's tactics to differing conditions and sensor capabilites- it's not difficult-- after all if the AI adapts to it being dark by switching on the search-lights- it shouls be no more difficult for it to adopt wider search patterns after a ship gets torped and during rougher weather--it's no different

if a ship gets torped and the DD's can't find a contact it should adopt different search areas and continue searching untill it does!! (or X amount of time goes past since the last sinking)

we have the lostcontact time but that only applies to what the DD's does AFTER it has founf a contact-- not before?

on the DC noise factor after a drop perhaps giving the sonar/hydrophones a large minimum range (200 metres?) would create a blindspot after a drop at least for the DD that made the attack run--if not for the others
it allso would mean that it wouldn't be able to detect anything directly under neath itself--that's if it actually means anything

[CB..]

here's a question just to check
does the stock sim.cfg list the visual sensor as having a
speedfactor of 15 knts??

or is this something i've added and forgoten about i did check my back up file but it is the same--

this obviously doesn't make any sense and might explain why the DD's don't allways react when i think they should--( tho i suppose trying to use a pair of binoculars whilst barreling along at 20 knots in choppy seas would no doubt be quite difficult)
anyhuw i've cranked it up to 35 knots and i''ll see if that does owt

also when you trying to guage your hydrophone sensitivity remeber the wavefactor has a huge impact on the DD's hydrophones--
mine seems to be about right in calm seas - but fairly useless in rougher seas--of course if i set it up so it's ok in rough seas it's going to be uber in calm seas --

~~~i think there-fore the wavesfactor might have to be set to zero--

in order to enable you to adjust things about right- then introduce a wavesfactor a tiny amount at a time just so there's a slight reduction in the DD's effeciency in rough seas--

or if as Red suspects there is in fact a randomisation factor then were stuffed completely and throughly UNLESS we can reduce the randomisation;

perhaps if all the sim.cfg enrtys regarding waves and noise were set to zero removing them from the equation ?

[Col7777]

Hi CB,

If I'm looking at the right thing, then yes it is 15knots but 20 in the sonar section, hope this helps.