Are there any real deal breakers in SH5 ?

[horsa]

SECOND STEP - OK let's weed a few out.

Special Case

1. 'online' requirement.
The con argument says it's intrusive/restrictive/immoral.
The pro argument says this is the future. Without it PC game development might cease.
For some players this is a complete no no . No compromise. End of story.

They can leave the room. None of what follows will be of any interest to them.


Almost Certainly Moddable:-

4. there seems to be only 3 types of merchant to sink

5.I can only play till '43

6. I'd also like to be able to select the start date (like SHIII) instead of having to start in '39.

12. sink so many battleship objectives.

23. No Kriegsmarine grid


Moddable to some extent :-

2. The Type VII only deal is very bad.

9. Inability of crew to spot anything neutral as in SH4
May as well not have any neutral shipping out there.

[horsa]

THIRD STEP - This leaves us with the unmoddable issues.:-

List

8. AI is the biggest non-moddable issue with the game. the escort AI needs to be improved, and other ship AI as well, so we do not have to see AI ships doing crazy things like ramming docks and running off into the woods.

3.The crew management (not managing transfers and whatnot) real captains had to deal with losing key personnel and having green recruits after every patrol.

7. crap systems and crew management

10. Inability to see ANY campaign changes until restart.

11. lack of a true auto TDC

10. Inability to see ANY campaign changes until restart.

13. ability to manually set torpedo depth accurately so's one can use the magnetic trigger effectively and bust the target's back

14. vague attempt to inject personal interaction and an RPG element into a genre that doesent lend itself to an RPG.

15. For me an immersion killer is how the engines sound. Increase speed: volume goes up for the propellers, motors, diesels, and waves....not the frequency.

16 Morale system is broken

17 Damage Effects and Control are badly implemented.

27.Weather, AI damage, map markings not saved in Save games

28.No torpedo AI of any kind.

29. No Wolfpacks

30.No BDU / interaction.

31. Intrusive "synchronising" messages even when I have this option turned off

32. No Kriegsmarine grid

33. Lack of crew animation

34. No blind spot in hydrophones

35. Abrupt patrol endings when macro-mission objectives are fulfilled

[horsa]

FOURTH STEP - Now we get amongst the potential deal breakers - a bit more weeding

So if UBI did not patch any of these features how many would make the game unplayable for you ? If they do then they are deal breakers.

To simplify things a bit further I would drop the following from my deal breakers list.
Its not because they are not important . Its just that I could live with them
Its a personal choice. It might be different for you.

Posters comments are now abbreviated .

13. no accurate manual torpedo depth
16. no morale system ( disable it)
15. no engine volume variation.
10. Inability to see ANY campaign changes until restart.
22.Intrusive "synchronising" messages even when I have this option turned off
25.No blind spot in hydrophones
26.Abrupt patrol endings when macro-mission objectives are fulfilled


If they are deal breakers for you then I guess that's you out.

I'd have to leave out 7. Crap systems because the author wasn't specific

Which leaves us with :-

3. No Crew Management.
8. Issues with AI
11. No true Auto TDC.
14. Genre that doesn't lend itself to RPG ?
17 Damage Effects and Control are badly implemented.
18.Weather, AI damage, map markings not saved in Save games
19.No torpedo AI of any kind.
20.No Wolfpacks
21.No BDU / interaction.
24.Lack of crew animation

[horsa]

FIFTH STEP - Are these real deal breakers?

Are they so bad you will either not buy the game or put it back on the shelf and play SH3 instead ?

The wild card is some issues might be patched. Others look to be design features and are therefore here to stay.

These are some notes on each one. You decide if they are real deal breakers for you.

Lack of Crew Management looks like a design decision. I can't see how that as patchable. Deal breaker ?

The Auto TDC system is a design featureand has been changed to a point and shoot system that needs practice. For the casual player this has become more difficult than "lock on and hit target nearly every time". Good or bad ?
For Manual TDC folk it's irrelevant.
If you are an auto TDC guy is this a deal breaker for you ?

RPG approach is another design feature. Does a sub sim lend itself to RPG ? Wasn't this already in SH3 and SH4 when you issued orders to crew members? The SH5 system is different and doesn't work well. Isn't this scripted ? In which case it becomes moddable.
Maybe the author was refering to the whole game centred on the FPS Captain. Tiresome necessity or hard core realism ?
Is this different system a deal breaker for you ?

Damage effects/control looks broken. Patchable ? Moddable ?
Deal breaker ?

Poor AI is the bane of a lot of games. From what I hear some AI is good but then you have DDs that run off into the woods and ships that crash into docks and explode. This looks like a patchable issue. Some posters have reported that some ( if not all) AI is scripted and therefore moddable. We'll see.
Deal breaker?

No Wolfpacks. Design feature. UBI's reluctance to take notice of the views of Subsim members and their mods of the last 5 years is not the issue here however valid the arguments. Sorry.
Deal breaker ?

No BDU radio traffic . Design feature. Same as above.

Lack of crew animation. I remember discussing the value of attempts at human avatars with Hitman and others many years ago. One school of thought was if they didn't work well they should be left out. If you can ignore them then you're still in. If not it's a deal breaker

No torpedo AI of any kind. Design feature. Same as above.

Weather, AI damage, map markings not saved in Save games. Doesn't this make saves useless ?Patchable ?
Deal breaker ?


CONCLUSION

I have to admit even the shortened list is depressing - and I guess there are many other issues not mentioned yet.

Is it a deal breaker for me ?

I just set sail, enjoy the immersive FP 3D walkabout, ogle the unbelievable graphics and make the best of a modded and imperfect operating environment ( not unlike the problems of U-boat captains actually).

For the moment its very satisfying and I know the modders won't let me down.

How long it lasts probably depends on the patching.

[Vikinger]

Sorry if i didnt read the hole thread but thing that annoys me despite to the "normal missing thing"
Its the diversity of ships. And foremost, Why does not any ship have external cargo???

[horsa]

Hi Vikinger. That's fine. Just keep adding to the list and making any other comments . Reading the whole thing isn't obligatory.

I don't blame you

[Vikinger]

Haha Horsa, This list will continue.
If u need any help to fix anything just give me a shout, Iam not that expert modder fan but i know some ins and outs

[Vikinger]

Originally Posted by horsa

FIFTH STEP - Are these real deal breakers?

Are they so bad you will either not buy the game or put it back on the shelf and play SH3 instead ?

The wild card is some issues might be patched. Others look to be design features and are therefore here to stay.

These are some notes on each one. You decide if they are real deal breakers for you.

Lack of Crew Management looks like a design decision. I can't see how that as patchable. Deal breaker ?

Crew management is a new thing in SH5 whit the moral thing. I think it can be fixed whit tweaks from the modders but a lot of things have to take in account for it to work properly, Both for your crew and the AI crew.

The Auto TDC system is a design featureand has been changed to a point and shoot system that needs practice. For the casual player this has become more difficult than "lock on and hit target nearly every time". Good or bad ?
For Manual TDC folk it's irrelevant.
If you are an auto TDC guy is this a deal breaker for you ?

Auto TDC is simple, but the measurement you get is annoying. Can be fixed by a mod that converts thos 1,2.3 dots and make the line inteo a measuerment line instead, if 2 meats 2 then fire, if 5,4 meats 5,4 then fire.

RPG approach is another design feature. Does a sub sim lend itself to RPG ? Wasn't this already in SH3 and SH4 when you issued orders to crew members? The SH5 system is different and doesn't work well. Isn't this scripted ? In which case it becomes moddable.
Maybe the author was refering to the whole game centred on the FPS Captain. Tiresome necessity or hard core realism ?
Is this different system a deal breaker for you ?

RPG must be changed, I simply must change the patrol objects.
And it can be done by modding the layers and goals

Damage effects/control looks broken. Patchable ? Moddable ?
Deal breaker ?

Nothing to say on this

Poor AI is the bane of a lot of games. From what I hear some AI is good but then you have DDs that run off into the woods and ships that crash into docks and explode. This looks like a patchable issue. Some posters have reported that some ( if not all) AI is scripted and therefore moddable. We'll see.
Deal breaker?

In fact, i dont think it so hard to implant a desecent AI, The game use same mechanic from previous games. Even thou they have disabled some functions from let say an destryer escort, But the functions is still there a<nd are just to be enabled and tweaked.

No Wolfpacks. Design feature. UBI's reluctance to take notice of the views of Subsim members and their mods of the last 5 years is not the issue here however valid the arguments. Sorry.
Deal breaker ?

UBI let me down on this.

No BDU radio traffic . Design feature. Same as above.

Lack of crew animation. I remember discussing the value of attempts at human avatars with Hitman and others many years ago. One school of thought was if they didn't work well they should be left out. If you can ignore them then you're still in. If not it's a deal breaker

No torpedo AI of any kind. Design feature. Same as above.

Weather, AI damage, map markings not saved in Save games. Doesn't this make saves useless ?Patchable ?
Deal breaker ?

Thhink this has to do that we have to sace the game online. It does not save the state. Just vital information and when you load a game the weather will start all over. Hard to mod or more impossible.


CONCLUSION

I have to admit even the shortened list is depressing - and I guess there are many other issues not mentioned yet.

Is it a deal breaker for me ?

I just set sail, enjoy the immersive FP 3D walkabout, ogle the unbelievable graphics and make the best of a modded and imperfect operating environment ( not unlike the problems of U-boat captains actually).

For the moment its very satisfying and I know the modders won't let me down.

How long it lasts probably depends on the patching.

Some elements cud be fixed and some not.
Ive made my valid comments in the quote things.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Vikinger

Sorry if i didnt read the hole thread but thing that annoys me despite to the "normal missing thing"
Its the diversity of ships. And foremost, Why does not any ship have external cargo???

The ships carrying war supplies have visible tanks and trucks on the decks. In fact, that's how you tell which ones you're to sink in the "War Supplies" mission in the Happy Times campaign.

[Vikinger]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

The ships carrying war supplies have visible tanks and trucks on the decks. In fact, that's how you tell which ones you're to sink in the "War Supplies" mission in the Happy Times campaign.

Oh i never got that far in the game. I more or less lost intresst cuz of the campaign mode jut when i enter that happy thing.

But from the first campaing i never saw a ship, nor germamy in port or allies that had cargo.

[kylania]

AI is the biggest non-moddable issue with the game.

That and most everything on your "non-moddable" list is completely moddable.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by kylania

That and most everything on your "non-moddable" list is completely moddable.

I was wondering the same thing.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Originally Posted by elanaiba

I don't understand? Planes have been shooting torpedoes from SH4, while in SH5 there's also AI submarines shooting torpedoes. No progress?

HUH?

now i had a good two week long campaign in a german Uboot in SHIV... and never saw such action!

aha? interesting, very interesting!

[EAF274 Johan]

Originally Posted by kylania

That and most everything on your "non-moddable" list is completely moddable.

That's great news, but it will take a lot of effort and time from modders to address those issues. I'm afraid many people (possibly including me) will have the patience to stick around that long, especially because many of those problems are not there in earlier titles. Looking at the list I have to say that a lot of items are indeed game breakers for me. So if these do not get fixed (be it through patching or modding) in the foreseeable future, I will certainly lose interest and go back to SH3/4. I'm also afraid that the talented modders, too, will get tired of trying to fix a broken game and leave SH5.

When I think of it, for me the only meaningful improvement that SH5 has to offer is the new mini map. All other new features seem to be either broken or poorly implemented

If I may add another "game breaker" to the list, it would be the lack of functionality of the hydrophones station. Unless I am missing something, I can't change the volume, use the mouse to select a bearing, or identify a target with the notepad. I also seem to be unable to hear ships breaking up, and so far I haven't heard the "sound guy" warn me of depth charges or destroyers on their attack run.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Originally Posted by EAF274 Johan

That's great news, but it will take a lot of effort and time from modders to address those issues. I'm afraid many people (possibly including me) will have the patience to stick around that long, especially because many of those problems are not there in earlier titles. Looking at the list I have to say that a lot of items are indeed game breakers for me. So if these do not get fixed (be it through patching or modding) in the foreseeable future, I will certainly lose interest and go back to SH3/4. I'm also afraid that the talented modders, too, will get tired of trying to fix a broken game and leave SH5.

..and the list of broken things in itself...

The Buyer, the customer, the dude forking out money...

For example he wants a product that works well, right from the start.
Let unssay... he has no clue about fora, no idea of modding or subsim, and plays SHIII unpatched, and enjoys it.

Now he comes to the store and sees SHV, gets it, and plays it...

and stumbles upon these things like no morale, UI completely different, Gubn crew difficulties and all the other things that are a huge Leanrning curve and are often enough badly explained to a point where the game no more works for him?

we all suppose that Modding's gonna fix things... that there is a community to write the manual for the Game...

but not every SH Player ever is a part of subsim or some other subsim forum...

for all those people that are not into modding, doing or using,
for those people SHV...

IS

broken.

...and if that is no dealbreaker...

?



?


Its just the opposite, two different opinions.

In this thread we sift through the things that will remain broken because unmoddable.

I, for one, suggest that a game needing modding to work properly, is a broken game in the first place.

I suggest that modding is a procedure to ADD material of all sorts and tastes to a game.
not FIX it.