Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Armistead

That man in a dress is offensive.....

That is a kilt sir!

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Aramike

And when you have a signature on the Internet, in context, is any damage done?

You kind of made my point.

I agree.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Damn fine question. It is accepted that it (flag) is in game. Outside of a game the flag is something altogether different and not of historical immersion the player attempts to recreate in game.

Let's look at it this way, would anyone here drive down the road with the swastika painted on the door of the car? Is that any different than having it in a sig on the internet?

Good point. Let's rephrase it a bit though to see if we feel the same way, though?

Let's say someone's navigating the ocean in an historical U-Boat and flying the Nazi flag. Would the flag then seem out of place?

RR: That you keep posting photos of blatant Nazi garbage kind of makes the point against you - no one here is featuring the flag like that. If they were, I'd have little doubt that they'd be reprimanded for doing so.

In the end, it'a all about context.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Aramike

Good point. Let's rephrase it a bit though to see if we feel the same way, though?

Let's say someone's navigating the ocean in an historical U-Boat and flying the Nazi flag. Would the flag then seem out of place?

RR: That you keep posting photos of blatant Nazi garbage kind of makes the point against you - no one here is featuring the flag like that. If they were, I'd have little doubt that they'd be reprimanded for doing so.

In the end, it'a all about context.

Sure it is about context. RR's contention is in game the flag is fine it is after all a game and it is immersion for the simulation. However, outside of the game should the 'immersion' stop? I'm guess RR is thinking so.

[Rockin Robbins]

I'm merely providing a service for any Nazis who are considering joining Subsim.


And I thought it useful to contrast types of images and see if we agreed on which ones were okay and which ones not. I see one that is somewhere on the bad side of the gray area and all the rest not acceptable in my last couple of posts. Naw! His armband puts him off-limits, so all of them would not be acceptable.

However if Nazis are going to join us, they'd be doing us a favor by properly identifying themselves with one of my siggy resource pics.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Sure it is about context. RR's contention is in game the flag is fine it is after all a game and it is immersion for the simulation. However, outside of the game should the 'immersion' stop? I'm guess RR is thinking so.

Are forums relating to the game "outside of the game?"

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Are forums relating to the game "outside of the game?"

Well, no as RDP stated.

[Armistead]

Hitler's conception of lebensraumpolitik - the idea that Germans were innately entitled by virtue of their racial and cultural superiority to land belonging to others, and that they were thus morally free to take it by aggressive military action

- obviously had much in common with the 19th century American sense of 'Manifest Destiny.'

[Rockin Robbins]

The only problem was that the Germans were not racially and culturally very different from those they invaded. They basically invented those "differences" as an excuse.

How was a German different from a Czechoslovakian? Why, he even used the excuse that he was seeking to reunite the Germanic peoples of Czechoslovakia and Germany! Austria different? Holland was apparently different enough to run over with his Panzer divisions. With the exception of the African countries, he confined his efforts in Western Civilization, all similar cultures sharing key values.

As for the United States in the 19th century, we can only say that humans of the 19th century had little to do with our values. While we look back sometimes with a wistfulness for a simpler, more straightforward and honest time, that is mostly a crock. It was a brutal time, where might was right, force was the arbiter of truth and if you had the power to do something you claimed the right.

I can make no excuses for either the Americans or the Indians of that time. They were both insane by our standards. Interestingly an American hero, General William Tecumseh Sherman was the man responsible for the conscious policy of exterminating native tribes. He gets nowhere near the amount of notoriety he deserves, and not even John Trudell mentions his guilt. I guess his civil war halo covers his genocidal aspects...

[ReallyDedPoet]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

That is a kilt sir!

Yeah, what AVG said So there

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Sure it is about context. RR's contention is in game the flag is fine it is after all a game and it is immersion for the simulation. However, outside of the game should the 'immersion' stop? I'm guess RR is thinking so.

If one makes the argument that the immersion should stop when not in the game, what about the sigs containing the kill totals from within the game? People clearly take their in-game personas to these forums.

Ultimately, my point is this: while I personally would prefer to never see the Nazi flag, I'm not offended by its occassional use here because I understand what is meant by it (as do most of you). I've always believed that the world would be a better place if people didn't go out of their way to be offended by things when clearly there was no offense intended.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

well as propaganda it'd be rather counterproductive:rotfl:
I can't help seeing some resemblance to Himmler in Monty Pyton's 'Mr. Hilter' sketch:

"Sorry mein Führer I did not...[Slapped by Hilter] argh.. mein... Dicky old chum!"

[AVGWarhawk]

I've always believed that the world would be a better place if people didn't go out of their way to be offended by things when clearly there was no offense intended.

Two things, the offended more than likely does not know there was no offense intended.
In todays politically correct climate anything displayed intentionally to offend or not will more than likely offend someone anyway. It is the way the world is.

Look at your sig. There must be some reason for it. I do not carry one other than some text of useless dribble. Doing that keeps me out of trouble.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

The only problem was that the Germans were not racially and culturally very different from those they invaded. They basically invented those "differences" as an excuse.

How was a German different from a Czechoslovakian? Why, he even used the excuse that he was seeking to reunite the Germanic peoples of Czechoslovakia and Germany! Austria different? Holland was apparently different enough to run over with his Panzer divisions. With the exception of the African countries, he confined his efforts in Western Civilization, all similar cultures sharing key values.

As for the United States in the 19th century, we can only say that humans of the 19th century had little to do with our values. While we look back sometimes with a wistfulness for a simpler, more straightforward and honest time, that is mostly a crock. It was a brutal time, where might was right, force was the arbiter of truth and if you had the power to do something you claimed the right.

I can make no excuses for either the Americans or the Indians of that time. They were both insane by our standards. Interestingly an American hero, General William Tecumseh Sherman was the man responsible for the conscious policy of exterminating native tribes. He gets nowhere near the amount of notoriety he deserves, and not even John Trudell mentions his guilt. I guess his civil war halo covers his genocidal aspects...

Let's not talk about Sherman, he burnt several of my relatives houses. Who know what untold wealth may have come my way.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

The only problem was that the Germans were not racially and culturally very different from those they invaded. They basically invented those "differences" as an excuse.

How was a German different from a Czechoslovakian? Why, he even used the excuse that he was seeking to reunite the Germanic peoples of Czechoslovakia and Germany! Austria different? Holland was apparently different enough to run over with his Panzer divisions.

ehm, the nazis did not invent any differences, with most western-european countries they instead hammered on being quite similar! They invaded Holland 'cause we Dutchmen are germanic people too and thus needed to join Germany in some huge germanic super-state.
Or that's what they told... It's much more likely Hitler was just a megalomane psychopath aching for even more land to control...