Dramatic 911 call from right before shooting released - Page 7

Fish · 11-17-07, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elite_hunter_sh3

it is legal to use lethal force to stop a felony in progress. In addition the neighbor could have been home and the old fellow may have had legitimate fear for their life/lives.

"So if any of my neighbors who are good friends (I have several) are being burglarized you can take a strong guess the situation will end the same

Same here if I'm in public and an armed robbery, rape, deadly attack or such is going on I can pull my legally carried weapon and blast the perp. One has to be on the ball and very aware of what is actually going on (not immediate impressions) and what the law allows"
from a person who lived nearby the incident.

Quote:
"Then you hear him rack the shotgun. The next sound the dispatcher heard was a boom. Then there was silence for a couple of seconds and then another boom."

Quote:
The Texas Penal Code says a person can use force or deadly force to defend someone else's property if he reasonably believes he has a legal duty to do so or the property owner had requested his protection.

Maybe legal, but not human!

baggygreen · 11-17-07, 06:58 PM

I'd probably tail them in his situation - hell, i know i would, i've done it before.

If it'd been my house they broke into, they wouldnt be walking out. I dont own a gun, but i'm handy enough with myself to make sure they're detained til the coppers arrived.

Course, to do that would involve laying a hand on them, then put me at risk of being charged for assault....

I understand the reasons for having laws - you're screwed without em. butt too often the law is followed too exactly. Now before people go getting all jumpy on that, what i mean is that a home invader caught in the act and 'assaulted' is treated by the law the same way an innocent old granny would be, if set upon by a gang. Laws need to be changed to say that rights become null and void if engaged in a criminal act, imho

Jimbuna · 11-18-07, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baggygreen

I'd probably tail them in his situation - hell, i know i would, i've done it before.

If it'd been my house they broke into, they wouldnt be walking out. I dont own a gun, but i'm handy enough with myself to make sure they're detained til the coppers arrived.

Course, to do that would involve laying a hand on them, then put me at risk of being charged for assault....

I understand the reasons for having laws - you're screwed without em. butt too often the law is followed too exactly. Now before people go getting all jumpy on that, what i mean is that a home invader caught in the act and 'assaulted' is treated by the law the same way an innocent old granny would be, if set upon by a gang. Laws need to be changed to say that rights become null and void if engaged in a criminal act, imho

They used to say "An Englishmans home is his castle"
Not anymore I'm afraid

If someone burgles your house and you give them a good going over, be prepared to self harm yourself (black eye, bust lip etc). Your only mitigation can be self defence

RickC Sniper · 11-19-07, 03:28 PM

It will be interesting to follow up this case and see what happens. It sure has raised emotions on both sides.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5303222.html

From that article:
Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect their own property to stop an arson, burglary, robbery, theft or criminal mischief at night, or to prevent someone committing such a crime at night from escaping with the property.
But the person using deadly force must believe there is no other way to protect their belongings and must suspect that taking less drastic measures could expose themselves or others to serious danger.
A state senator who authored a law passed this year giving Texans stronger rights to defend themselves with deadly force said he did not believe the legislation he spearheaded would apply to the Pasadena case, based on the sketchy facts that have emerged so far.
Sen. Jeff Wentworth, a San Antonio Republican, said the so-called castle doctrine law he wrote doesn't apply to people protecting their neighbors' property.
The measure "is not designed to have kind of a 'Law West of the Pecos' mentality or action," Wentworth said. "You're supposed to be able to defend your own home, your own family, in your house, your place of business or your motor vehicle."

swifty · 11-19-07, 07:55 PM

This is definitely an interesting case. I suspect it will come down to state of mind. I grew up in a carbon copy neighborhood in Katy TX, just west of Houston. The biggest incident I can remember happening there was when one neighbor shot and killed 2 pit bulls that had escaped and were attacking his next door neighbor's dog. The police charge him with discharging a firearm in public. The DA later dropped charges, for one being ridiculous and two there was no way he could win.

After seeing the neighborhood it was quite clear they did not belong so it was premeditated and not a crime of opportunity. With these crimes often burglars) will hit multiple houses in the area. Because of this I would be worried my home might be next and would want to stop them before they would come after me.

If you want here is a map where the incident occurred:
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?wi...AuMDA5NzY1NjI1

Fish · 11-20-07, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waste gate

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

Quote:

Originally Posted by waste gate

How many of those in US jails are there because our law enforcement and courts, as lousy as they are, are better than the UK?

Are you serious?

That would make US police over 530% more effective than the police of any European country.

And yet you allow the existance of the police to feel safe? False safety man.

I for one feel very safe here.

You have laws in Texas we had in the middle ages.

Letum · 11-20-07, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

My property, my stuff, my rules, my life. <--- All on the line

If you're a stranger in my home at 3 AM robbing me and I've got a gun, you'll get shot. Simple and to the point.

PM me your address and I'll make sure I give yours a miss. My dad warned me how good Old Crusty was with a gun

If he PMs me his address then I will make sure I also bring a gun to rob him and shoot first.
After all, if he is armed then there is no point in taking chances, right?

As for "My property, my stuff"; to (bluntly) paraphrase Plato's Socrates:
The virtuous man can not be harmed by the loss of his "property and stuff" because
the only thing that matters to him is his virtue and that can not be taken or harmed.

It is my view that Stealth Hunter is more concerned about his "property and stuff" than he is about doing the right and virtous thing.

11-20-07, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

My property, my stuff, my rules, my life. <--- All on the line

If you're a stranger in my home at 3 AM robbing me and I've got a gun, you'll get shot. Simple and to the point.

PM me your address and I'll make sure I give yours a miss. My dad warned me how good Old Crusty was with a gun

If he PMs me his address then I will make sure I also bring a gun to rob him and shoot first.
After all, if he is armed then there is no point in taking chances, right?

As for "My property, my stuff"; to (bluntly) paraphrase Plato's Socrates:
The virtuous man can not be harmed by the loss of his "property and stuff" because
the only thing that matters to him is his virtue and that can not be taken or harmed.

It is my view that Stealth Hunter is more concerned about his "property and stuff" than he is about doing the right and virtous thing.

Virtue, Virtue? Virtue is what gets people killed. No one will ever consider one virtuous if they died when they didn't have to, stupid perhaps. Be it over property or ones own life. If property is of enough value to steal it certainly of enough value to defend.
Like any use of force, overwhelming force wins regardless of virtue.

Letum · 11-20-07, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waste gate

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

My property, my stuff, my rules, my life. <--- All on the line

If you're a stranger in my home at 3 AM robbing me and I've got a gun, you'll get shot. Simple and to the point.

PM me your address and I'll make sure I give yours a miss. My dad warned me how good Old Crusty was with a gun

If he PMs me his address then I will make sure I also bring a gun to rob him and shoot first.
After all, if he is armed then there is no point in taking chances, right?

As for "My property, my stuff"; to (bluntly) paraphrase Plato's Socrates:
The virtuous man can not be harmed by the loss of his "property and stuff" because
the only thing that matters to him is his virtue and that can not be taken or harmed.

It is my view that Stealth Hunter is more concerned about his "property and stuff" than he is about doing the right and virtous thing.

Virtue, Virtue? Virtue is what gets people killed. No one will ever consider one virtuous if they died when they didn't have to, stupid perhaps. Be it over property or ones own life. If property is of enough value to steal it certainly of enough value to defend.
Like any use of force, overwhelming force wins regardless of virtue.

Wahhhh!?

You don't think moral virtue is important?!

No wonder you want to shoot other people.

Venatore · 11-21-07, 01:34 AM

Two ships sunk for three shots, hell give him the Iron Cross !

Happy Times · 11-21-07, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

My property, my stuff, my rules, my life. <--- All on the line

If you're a stranger in my home at 3 AM robbing me and I've got a gun, you'll get shot. Simple and to the point.

PM me your address and I'll make sure I give yours a miss. My dad warned me how good Old Crusty was with a gun

If he PMs me his address then I will make sure I also bring a gun to rob him and shoot first.
After all, if he is armed then there is no point in taking chances, right?

As for "My property, my stuff"; to (bluntly) paraphrase Plato's Socrates:
The virtuous man can not be harmed by the loss of his "property and stuff" because
the only thing that matters to him is his virtue and that can not be taken or harmed.

It is my view that Stealth Hunter is more concerned about his "property and stuff" than he is about doing the right and virtous thing.

Heh, but in Platos republic criminals wouldnt get the other cheak, they would get hit hard.

Letum · 11-21-07, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Heh, but in Platos republic criminals wouldnt get the other cheak, they would get hit hard.

I must disagree!
Whilst he is certinaly of the view that criminals must be punished in order for them to
change, there is no discription of how this should be done in the republic.

He talks about the reformation of criminals, certinaly not the killing of them with out trial.

The only real crime and punishment dialouge is the punishment of the tyrent Ardiaeus, and
that occurs in Hades.

RamRod · 12-02-07, 01:05 PM

The use of the word criminal implies one that has been caught tried and convicted. A perpetrator implies one attempting or suspected of committing a crime and has not been caught. These were unlucky perpetrators. As previous posters suggested, they knew the risks before committing the crime. Mr. Horn broke the law in that Texas law does not authorize the use of deadly force to protect your neighbor’s home. Luckily our fine justice system in Texas also compliments itself with common sense. My meaning here is that a police officer friend told me yesterday that the Grand Jury has no-billed Mr. Horn. His only punishment will be his conscience.
Let other perps take a lesson from their more unfortunate colleagues.

11-19-07, 03:28 PM	#94
RickC Sniper Undetectable Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,221 Downloads: 132 Uploads: 0	It will be interesting to follow up this case and see what happens. It sure has raised emotions on both sides. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5303222.html From that article: Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect their own property to stop an arson, burglary, robbery, theft or criminal mischief at night, or to prevent someone committing such a crime at night from escaping with the property. But the person using deadly force must believe there is no other way to protect their belongings and must suspect that taking less drastic measures could expose themselves or others to serious danger. A state senator who authored a law passed this year giving Texans stronger rights to defend themselves with deadly force said he did not believe the legislation he spearheaded would apply to the Pasadena case, based on the sketchy facts that have emerged so far. Sen. Jeff Wentworth, a San Antonio Republican, said the so-called castle doctrine law he wrote doesn't apply to people protecting their neighbors' property. The measure "is not designed to have kind of a 'Law West of the Pecos' mentality or action," Wentworth said. "You're supposed to be able to defend your own home, your own family, in your house, your place of business or your motor vehicle." __________________ Support Subsim http://www.subsim.com/store.html

12-02-07, 01:05 PM	#103
RamRod Watch Join Date: May 2006 Location: Texas Loud and Proud Posts: 28 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Criminals vs. Perpitrators The use of the word criminal implies one that has been caught tried and convicted. A perpetrator implies one attempting or suspected of committing a crime and has not been caught. These were unlucky perpetrators. As previous posters suggested, they knew the risks before committing the crime. Mr. Horn broke the law in that Texas law does not authorize the use of deadly force to protect your neighbor’s home. Luckily our fine justice system in Texas also compliments itself with common sense. My meaning here is that a police officer friend told me yesterday that the Grand Jury has no-billed Mr. Horn. His only punishment will be his conscience. Let other perps take a lesson from their more unfortunate colleagues.

11-17-07, 06:58 PM	#92
baggygreen Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Canberra, ACT, Down Under (really On Top) Posts: 1,880 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	I'd probably tail them in his situation - hell, i know i would, i've done it before. If it'd been my house they broke into, they wouldnt be walking out. I dont own a gun, but i'm handy enough with myself to make sure they're detained til the coppers arrived. Course, to do that would involve laying a hand on them, then put me at risk of being charged for assault.... I understand the reasons for having laws - you're screwed without em. butt too often the law is followed too exactly. Now before people go getting all jumpy on that, what i mean is that a home invader caught in the act and 'assaulted' is treated by the law the same way an innocent old granny would be, if set upon by a gang. Laws need to be changed to say that rights become null and void if engaged in a criminal act, imho

11-19-07, 07:55 PM	#95
swifty Soundman Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: S. Florida Posts: 141 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	This is definitely an interesting case. I suspect it will come down to state of mind. I grew up in a carbon copy neighborhood in Katy TX, just west of Houston. The biggest incident I can remember happening there was when one neighbor shot and killed 2 pit bulls that had escaped and were attacking his next door neighbor's dog. The police charge him with discharging a firearm in public. The DA later dropped charges, for one being ridiculous and two there was no way he could win. After seeing the neighborhood it was quite clear they did not belong so it was premeditated and not a crime of opportunity. With these crimes often burglars) will hit multiple houses in the area. Because of this I would be worried my home might be next and would want to stop them before they would come after me. If you want here is a map where the incident occurred: http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?wi...AuMDA5NzY1NjI1

11-21-07, 01:34 AM	#100
Venatore Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Australia:- Sydney Posts: 2,049 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 0	Two ships sunk for three shots, hell give him the Iron Cross !