Religion, who cares?

[Abraham]

@ XabbaRus:
I think the subject of your link is Off Topic, but it's scandalous anyway.
It seems to me a political decision by a military tribunal. The captain is a Druze, an old Arab/Palestinian sect, mostly living in Northern Israel, Southern Lebanon and Western Syria...
They are fierce fighters, loyal to Israel and punishing one could perhaps have consequences for the attitude of the group.
I would personally call it murder.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1643573,00.html

Wow! The lonney left rag called the Guradian strikes again! They just can't resist sinking their fangs into Israel at every which opportunity.

Abraham, you're talking nonsense. The only thing wrong this officer did was to shoot at her after she was dead.

A copy of the IDF Spokesman's press release can be found here.

You seem to talk from experience. When you man a position with an enemy that straps bombs to children and have to defend yourself and you fellow soldiers in your position, let us know.

[Damo1977]

Religion is obselet. (Word is wrong I believe). If the human race hasn't gone forward enough to realise what is right from wrong without reading it from a religious resource, maybe we are doomed, cause that means humans can't think individually and haven't grown mentally in thousands of years.

'Oh wait, I might be wrong, better go find some religious nonsence to put me straight!!!' :rotfl:

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Wow! The lonney left rag called the Guradian strikes again! They just can't resist sinking their fangs into Israel at every which opportunity.

Abraham, you're talking nonsense. The only thing wrong this officer did was to shoot at her after she was dead.

A copy of the IDF Spokesman's press release can be found here.

You seem to talk from experience. When you man a position with an enemy that straps bombs to children and have to defend yourself and you fellow soldiers in your position, let us know.

The always-victim-never-guilty-story again.

German TV news RTL 7th November this year. A German filmcrew made an announced visit in a Palestinian school, and interviewed the staff and filmed the location. The reporter only smiled and knowingly nodded his head when he was shown fragments from "gas grenades" and was told by the director that almost every day, at around the same time, an Israeli patrol would show up and start firing smoke grenades into the schoolyard and into the crowds of children (6-10 years). Nonsens, of course, Israel does not do such things. The usual kind of hate-filled Palestinian propaganda. The filming went on. At the end they filmed a wide panorama from a roof or a balcony, the whole school compound. School was over, groups of peaceful boys and girls age 6-10 left the building chatting and laughing and headed for the gate. Then by chance the camera showed an Israeli Jeep or Rover whoch approached slowly from the background - which stopped and then started to lob several rounds right into the crowds of children - which were not attacking, not throwing stones, did not do anything, just heading home. Smoke and tear gas all over the place. Panic broke out, everyone screaming and running around. NOT BEFORE THEN older juveniles ran to that place in help, and started to answer the Israeli friendliness by throwing stones at them. Later the reporter - who was not smiling anymore, but had swollen red eyes and obviously had some kind of trouble with his vision - walked over to that patrol and asked what the hell they were thinking. "no comment", they said, shrugged shoulders and turned away. Later the video was shown the Israeli police chief. He said that the patrol clearly was under attack and had the right to defend itself. Insisting that the video clearly showed there was no attack at all and the patrol moved in completely unharmed and then opened fire on little children who were about hopping and dancing home without even a hint of a provocation, the reporter again was told that it obviously was an attack by the Palestinians. There also were no hostilities reported in the vicinity of that school.

Let’s the director‘s initial statement on regular provocations appear in another light, eh?

It's by far not the first time that our medias were able to come up with evidence for such Israeli provocations. Sometimes it seems to be about crushing education of Palestinians, sometimes about triggering incidents which then are taken as an excuse to go in in force and acchieve whatver is to be acchieved – the real reason for such actions. The director of that school said that usually they come during lessons and shelling smoke grenades into the classrooms, to make education and lessons impossible that way.

Again: we are talking of boys and girls age 6-10 beeing intentionally fired upon with smoke and teargas when laughing and hpping around on a schoolyard and heading home. If I were a Palestinian and see such events happen throughout my youth, it would be my highest pleasure to bomb every Israelis cafe that can reach in return.

In that essay I wrote:

The only people that has understood the real and potentially threatening nature of Islam is probably the Israelis (...); having said that I still would like to ask the Israelis why they love to spill oil into already burning fires so often, but that is a complex and very much different theme for discussion that I will not join, I just mentioned this because I don’t want to give the impression I see Israel as right and just in everything it does – it is not like that.

Back in 2003, military historian Martin van Crefeld made these remarks:

Dutch-Israeli Military Historian -
'We Are Destroying Ourselves'
From: Ingrid Rimland

1-31-3

The ZGram reader who sent me this interview prefaced it as follows:

"The following interview of the Jewish military historian Martin van Crefeld by the Dutch magazine Elsevier was discovered on Indymedia by one of our readers. The views and opinions revealed here expose Israeli policy with a frankness only possible for a Jew. (...) We recommend that our readers give careful study to this interview.

"The prominent Dutch magazine Elsevier has published a conversation with Dutch-Israeli military historian Martin van Creveld. The following has been translated from the Dutch [and then from the German]":

(START)

"We are destroying ourselves."

"In Israel a scenario of doom is taking shape."

Interview with the much reviled Dutch-Israeli Military Historian Martin van Creveld

Professor Martin van Creveld, an internationally known and controversial professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, foresees only extreme developments for the appreciable future. The methods by which Israel is currently combating the Intifada are doomed to failure. The chances for peace and the founding of a Palestinian state are visibly diminishing. A conversation with a pessimist, who, as he himself says, is reviled in his own country.

Interviewer: Your specialty is war. Is what's going on here war at all?

Creveld: Certainly, although the Palestinians have no government, no army, and no [nationality]. Everything is in chaos. That's why we won't win the war, either. If we could identify and eliminate every terrorist, we'd win this struggle within forty-eight hours. The Palestinian administration has the same difficulties. Even in Arafat decided to comply with our conditions and surrender tomorrow, it's virtually certain that the Intifada would continue.

Interviewer: Are there any similarities on the Israeli side?

Creveld: If the dispute lasts much longer, the Israeli government will lose control of its people. For people will say: "If government can't protect us, what on earth can they do for us? If the government can't guarantee that we'll be alive tomorrow, what good are they? We'll defend ourselves."

Interviewer: So Israel is beaten in advance?

Creveld: On that I'll quote Henry Kissinger: "In campaigns like this the antiterror forces lose, because they don't win, and the rebels win by not losing." That certainly applies here. I regard a total Israeli defeat as unavoidable. That will mean the collapse of the Israeli state and society. We'll destroy ourselves.

Interviewer: Is there any point to the recent Israeli military offensive?

Creveld: This offensive is totally useless; it's only further enraging the Palestinians. Perhaps there will be a short-lived calm, but in the end there will even more suicide attackers.

Interviewer: Is there any hope?

Creveld: If I were Arafat, I wouldn't stop either. I'd only cease in exchange for a very far-reaching political accord. And it seems as if we have a government [under Sharon-tr.] that won't make Arafat such an offer. If elections were held today, the Left would be thoroughly beaten.

Interviewer: Some maintain that it is Israel's foreign enemies that keep the country unified.

Creveld: That's right. I only wish that there were foreign enemies, but that isn't the case. We've fought our external enemies for so many years. Each time there was a war, we took a mighty hammer to our foes, and after being defeated a few times, they left us alone. The problem with the Palestinian revolt is that it doesn't come from without, but rather from within. Therefore we can't avail ourselves of the hammer.

Interviewer: Is the solution, then, to keep the Palestinians outside the borders?

Creveld: Exactly, and right now there's nearly unanimous agreement on that. We ought to build a wall "so high, that not even a bird can fly over it." The only problem is: where to put the border? Since we can't decide whether the territories conquered in 1967 should be included, for the time being we improvise a little. We're building a series of little walls, which are much more difficult to defend. From a military standpoint this is very stupid. Every supermarket has gradually acquired its own living wall of security guards. Half the Israeli population is guarding the other half-unbelievable. Aside from the fantastic waste, it's almost totally useless.

Interviewer: Does that mean that the Palestinians stay within the borders?

Creveld: No, it means that they all get deported. The people who strive for this are waiting only for the right man and the right time. Two years ago only 7 or 8 percent of Israelis were of the opinion that this would be the best solution, two months ago it was 33 percent and now, according to a Gallup poll, the figure is 44 percent.

Interviewer: Will that ever be possible?

Creveld: Sure, since desperate times give rise to desperate measures. Today there's a fifty-fifty split on where the border should run. Two years ago 90 percent wanted the wall built along the old border. That has completely changed now, and if things continue, if the terror doesn't stop, in another two years perhaps 90 percent will want to build the wall along the Jordan. The Palestinians talk of "summutt," meaning hang tough, cling to the ground and the soil. I have enormous respect for the Palestinians. They fight heroically. But if we in fact want to strike across the Jordan, we would need only a few brigades. If the Syrians or the Egyptians were to try to stop us, we'd wipe them out. Ariel Sharon is leader. He never improvises: he always has a plan.

Interviewer: A plan to deport the Palestinians?

Creveld: I think it's quite possible that he wants to do that. He wants to escalate the conflict. He knows that nothing else we do will succeed.

Interviewer: Do you think that the world will allow that kind of ethnic cleansing?

Creveld: That depends on who does it and how quickly it happens. We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force.

Interviewer: Wouldn't Israel then become a rogue state?

Creveld: Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother." I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen, before Israel goes under.

Interviewer: This isn't your own position, is it?

Creveld: Of course not. You asked me what might happen and I've laid it out. The only question is whether it is already too late for the other solution, which I support, and whether Israeli public opinion can still be convinced. I think it's too late. With each passing day the expulsion of the Palestinians grows more probable. The alternative would be the total annihilation and disintegration of Israel. What do you expect from us?

This interview was conducted by Ferry Biedermann in Jerusalem.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The always-victim-never-guilty-story again.

Never? No. This case? Yes.

German TV news RTL 7th November this year. A German filmcrew made an announced visit

Announced visit? I'm already suspicious. Perfect to set up the situation in advance. Are you sure you didn't mean unannounced?

in a Palestinian school, and interviewed the staff and filmed the location. The reporter only smiled and knowingly nodded his head when he was shown fragments from "gas grenades" and was told by the director that almost every day, at around the same time, an Israeli patrol would show up and start firing smoke grenades into the schoolyard and into the crowds of children (6-10 years). Nonsens, of course, Israel does not do such things. The usual kind of hate-filled Palestinian propaganda. The filming went on. At the end they filmed a wide panorama from a roof or a balcony, the whole school compound. School was over, groups of peaceful boys and girls age 6-10 left the building chatting and laughing and headed for the gate. Then by chance the camera showed an Israeli Jeep or Rover whoch approached slowly from the background - which stopped and then started to lob several rounds right into the crowds of children - which were not attacking, not throwing stones, did not do anything, just heading home. Smoke and tear gas all over the place. Panic broke out, everyone screaming and running around. NOT BEFORE THEN older juveniles ran to that place in help, and started to answer the Israeli friendliness by throwing stones at them. Later the reporter - who was not smiling anymore, but had swollen red eyes and obviously had some kind of trouble with his vision - walked over to that patrol and asked what the hell they were thinking. "no comment", they said, shrugged shoulders and turned away. Later the video was shown the Israeli police chief. He said that the patrol clearly was under attack and had the right to defend itself. Insisting that the video clearly showed there was no attack at all and the patrol moved in completely unharmed and then opened fire on little children who were about hopping and dancing home without even a hint of a provocation, the reporter again was told that it obviously was an attack by the Palestinians. There also were no hostilities reported in the vicinity of that school.

I'd love to see the film. I'd also be interested in seeing the full reports.

While there are goons in the IDF, too, just like most any other army, the response by Israel's chief of police is not his usual in such cases, unless he knew for sure that the incident is just what he said it was.

Again, you may be right but nothing surprises me.

(This would be a good time to mention having a view at Pierre rehov's "THE ROAD TO JENIN").

I do not recall the instance Germany's RTL mentions, and this is alway desired footage by the local leftist TV and press. And these incidents are always reported by the rest of the papers. Interested that it seems to be a total unknown here.

I'd love it to get publicized. Then we could get down to the truth and either toss away some bad apple soldiers or nod our heads again and say those Pallys can't be beat when it comes to being the biggest liars around. Goebels is turning in his grave.

Let’s the director‘s initial statement on regular provocations appear in another light, eh?

Looking forward to the investigation. Don't let it rest, Skybird.

It's by far not the first time that our medias were able to come up with evidence for such Israeli provocations. Sometimes it seems to be about crushing education of Palestinians, sometimes about triggering incidents which then are taken as an excuse to go in in force and acchieve whatver is to be acchieved – the real reason for such actions. The director of that school said that usually they come during lessons and shelling smoke grenades into the classrooms, to make education and lessons impossible that way.

As an Israeli, with friends husband's in active reserves and friend and neighbors' children actively serving, I challenge you to substantiate such rubbish.

Again: we are talking of boys and girls age 6-10 beeing intentionally fired upon with smoke and teargas when laughing and hpping around on a schoolyard and heading home. If I were a Palestinian and see such events happen throughout my youth, it would be my highest pleasure to bomb every Israelis cafe that can reach in return.

It would be my highest pleasure to toss away such soldiers in a dark and cold lockup for a long term without parole. But it has to be true first.
[quote]In that essay I wrote:

The only people that has understood the real and potentially threatening nature of Islam is probably the Israelis (...); having said that I still would like to ask the Israelis why they love to spill oil into already burning fires so often, but that is a complex and very much different theme for discussion that I will not join, I just mentioned this because I don’t want to give the impression I see Israel as right and just in everything it does – it is not like that.

You've bought the left's propaganda hook, line and sinker.

Back in 2003, military historian Martin van Crefeld made these remarks:

Dutch-Israeli Military Historian -
'We Are Destroying Ourselves'
From: Ingrid Rimland

1-31-3

The ZGram reader who sent me this interview prefaced it as follows:

"The following interview of the Jewish military historian Martin van Crefeld by the Dutch magazine Elsevier was discovered on Indymedia by one of our readers. The views and opinions revealed here expose Israeli policy with a frankness only possible for a Jew. (...) We recommend that our readers give careful study to this interview.

Indymedia? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

BTW, we have many self-hating nihilistic Jews here. "Frankness from a Jew" is a worthless assessment.

"The prominent Dutch magazine Elsevier has published a conversation with Dutch-Israeli military historian Martin van Creveld. The following has been translated from the Dutch [and then from the German]":

(START)

"We are destroying ourselves."

"In Israel a scenario of doom is taking shape."

Interview with the much reviled Dutch-Israeli Military Historian Martin van Creveld

Professor Martin van Creveld, an internationally known and controversial professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, foresees only extreme developments for the appreciable future. The methods by which Israel is currently combating the Intifada are doomed to failure.

I agree and disagree. Big deal. Read on.

The chances for peace and the founding of a Palestinian state are visibly diminishing.

If only it were true!

A conversation with a pessimist, who, as he himself says, is reviled in his own country.

There's a hint for you. Nudge! Nudge!

Interviewer: Your specialty is war. Is what's going on here war at all?

Creveld: Certainly, although the Palestinians have no government, no army, and no [nationality]. Everything is in chaos. That's why we won't win the war, either. If we could identify and eliminate every terrorist, we'd win this struggle within forty-eight hours.

This is already nonsense. When fighting terrorism, one should not need to check every individual's ID card and documents.

The Palestinian administration has the same difficulties. Even in Arafat decided to comply with our conditions and surrender tomorrow, it's virtually certain that the Intifada would continue.

Only because once Arafat started the party, the music could not stop. But he never tried anyway. So far this genius professor of ours is uite an amatuer.

Interviewer: Are there any similarities on the Israeli side?

Creveld: If the dispute lasts much longer, the Israeli government will lose control of its people. For people will say: "If government can't protect us, what on earth can they do for us? If the government can't guarantee that we'll be alive tomorrow, what good are they? We'll defend ourselves."

This interview was from almost 3 years ago. A prophecy that hasn't come true.

What's your point, Skybird? So far, it's self-defeating.

Interviewer: So Israel is beaten in advance?

Creveld: On that I'll quote Henry Kissinger: "In campaigns like this the antiterror forces lose, because they don't win, and the rebels win by not losing." That certainly applies here. I regard a total Israeli defeat as unavoidable. That will mean the collapse of the Israeli state and society. We'll destroy ourselves.

There is defintely that certain fear but not for the reasons the old professor states.

EU and American aussaging of Arab demands are placing a major security risk on Israel at the moment. What was once talk of 67' lines (Heaven forfend) has turned to 48' or even 47' lines.

Israel has compromised and compromised and keeps redrawing its red lines lower and lower.

Interviewer: Is there any point to the recent Israeli military offensive?

Creveld: This offensive is totally useless; it's only further enraging the Palestinians.

Typical leftist jackass. Look up the statistics yourself. Since the Netanya Park Hotel suicide homicide bombing on Passover 2002 and Israel's following offensives plus the construction of the security fence, the number of Israeli casualties has been dramatically reduced. And I should know as a volunteer for this organization.

Perhaps there will be a short-lived calm, but in the end there will even more suicide attackers.

Yes and no. Fact is less are successful. Fact also is that Israel has allowed the terrorists to rebuild their infrastructures almost everywhere.

Interviewer: Is there any hope?

Creveld: If I were Arafat, I wouldn't stop either. I'd only cease in exchange for a very far-reaching political accord.

Terrorism pays! Remember that when it hits Europe. You'll see.

And it seems as if we have a government [under Sharon-tr.] that won't make Arafat such an offer. If elections were held today, the Left would be thoroughly beaten.

Interviewer: Some maintain that it is Israel's foreign enemies that keep the country unified.

Creveld: That's right. I only wish that there were foreign enemies, but that isn't the case.

Arafat was bankrolled by the EU. His and the other terrorist organizations were funded via Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and numerous others.

We've fought our external enemies for so many years. Each time there was a war, we took a mighty hammer to our foes, and after being defeated a few times, they left us alone. The problem with the Palestinian revolt is that it doesn't come from without, but rather from within. Therefore we can't avail ourselves of the hammer.

This is gibberish and is precisely the cause of Israel's failure. Isreal never did declare an outright war against the Palestinians and an all out assault with a demnd for uncondition surrender.

We lose.

Skybird, I'll stop here because this professor is typical of the moron intellectuals of the world who have been instructing governments and head of state around the world on how to appease their enemies.

Churchill knew better.

[Hitman]

Skybird wrote:
The always-victim-never-guilty-story again.

Never? No. This case? Yes.

Israelians and Palestinians are, above all, just humans fighting for a piece of land. Nobody can claim to be agressor/victim, there are good & evil men in both sides, and also unfortunately people whose power and influence would diminish to nothing if a peace happened. The main injustice in this all is the conflict itself going on, it is not a matter of winning or loosing it, both sides are loosing equally.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Israelians and Palestinians are, above all, just humans fighting for a piece of land. Nobody can claim to be agressor/victim, there are good & evil men in both sides, and also unfortunately people whose power and influence would diminish to nothing if a peace happened. The main injustice in this all is the conflict itself going on, it is not a matter of winning or loosing it, both sides are loosing equally.

More gibberish.

The PLO's, Hamas' and Islamic Jihad's charters have never stopped calling for the outright destruction of Israel.

More European "equivalency" rubbish.

[jumpy]

I think it's clear from this (and other threads) that Avon Lady has some rather strongly oppinionated views on the whole subject...

[Hitman]

The PLO's, Hamas' and Islamic Jihad's charters have never stopped calling for the outright destruction of Israel.

That's because from their point of view Isarel invaded their land and threw out the legitimate owners. Wether they are right or not in that is another matter....I just pointed out that each side thinks he is right.

Originally Posted by Hitman

That's because from their point of view Isarel invaded their land and threw out the legitimate owners. Wether they are right or not in that is another matter....I just pointed out that each side thinks he is right.

The roots of this conflict is so old... In case of terrorist organisations - afaik - it were Jews who created such battlegroups first: Hashomer, Hagana, Irgun Zvai Leumi. It's 1905-1938. The first such Palestinian group is Qassam brigades - around 1935.
In 1947, UN divided Palestina into Jews' and Palestinians' parts. Jerusalem and surroundings supposed to be neutral land. No precise borders were set, no forces were dispatched to enforce this decision. Neither Jews, nor Palestinians were glad. Followed the "Non-declared war"...

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Negr

The roots of this conflict is so old... In case of terrorist organisations - afaik - it were Jews who created such battlegroups first: Hashomer, Hagana, Irgun Zvai Leumi. It's 1905-1938. The first such Palestinian group is Qassam brigades - around 1935.
In 1947, UN divided Palestina into Jews' and Palestinians' parts. Jerusalem and surroundings supposed to be neutral land. No precise borders were set, no forces were dispatched to enforce this decision. Neither Jews, nor Palestinians were glad. Followed the "Non-declared war"...

Our Russian revisionist is at it again. Check your dates. Check your facts. Let me help you:

Myths & Facts - The Mandatory Period.

Hashomer. The word "HaShomer" means the "Watchman" or "guard". What did they have to watch out and guard from? Hmmmm........................ :hmm:

Haganah. Here, too, the word "Haganah" means defense. What did they need to defend themselves from? Hmmm..................... :hmm:

Arabs organizing against Jews in 1935? You're off by a few critical years: Arab Riots of the 1920’s.

Did you learn about the Middle East from weekly installments in Pravda's Sunday Magazine perhaps?

One last link - lots of old B&W pictures:

Tell The Children The Truth.