Korean air 007 should it have been shot down?

[August]

Originally Posted by Negr

And what about China? It still be acommunist country. How soon are you going to democratize them?

A few posts back you used the Chinese as an example of America forcing democracy upon the inhabitants of the middle kingdom. So what happened? It didn't take?

BTW Abraham isn't an American so unless you consider the Dutch as an integral part of this evil movement to force democracy down the throats of the innocent peace loving tolitarian regimes around the world you might want to make the distinction.

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by Negr

And what about China? It still be acommunist country. How soon are you going to democratize them?

When todays youth in China become adults they will probably democratize themselves. China is eating off the capitalistic plate and going back for seconds.
Also, name two democratic countries that ever fought each other.

[joea]

Originally Posted by Negr

I have some ideas about. But they probably will insult many of you.
I don't really know, who shot down that Boeing. I don't know if it was even shoot down. I don't know if there was only one aircraft.
For me, this is only a brilliant examle of propaganda campaign. Conducted by US. Incredible and unseen before. Soviets were once again declared cold-blooded killers. And this time, US propagandists gained a great victory.

In July 1988 Iranian Airbus was shoot down by USS Vincennes in neutral waters over the Gulf. 290 crew and passengers dead, including 66 children. Official vercion - radar operators confused 747 for enemy F-14. 9 years after, US paid totally $61.8 million in compensation. And then, the incident was forgotten. Commander of USS Vincennes was awarded for this campaign.
Nobody talks about it now - as if it was a simple flycatching.
It was forgotten. Because it was done by US.

Both were stupid accidents IMO by two militaristic superpowers. I'm Canadian so I hate both Russia and the USA. Kidding.

Honestly what kind of stupid statement is that? What happened to KAL 007 then? My boss' brother in law knew someone on the plane, were all the passengers and the families CIA agents?

Reading your other posts, well I agree spreading democracy by war is a dumb idea. Sounds like Trotsky eh tovarish? :rotfl:

Some of your other posts were strange, is the USA the only country to kill children? You mentioned WWII bombings, yes Japan was area bombed, Germany was area bombed by the British though, the USA "tried" precision bombing. I suppose the Red Army were careful not to hit civilians with artillery, katyushas or Pe-2 in Konigsberg or Berlin? German women had special lessons in how to become proletarians though, give it for free. US soldiers I guess always had money to pay.

Lots of countries got the benefit of Soviet help, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Hungary. Sorry cheap shot comrade.

BTW, I don't think Russia is a threat, or Islam...you guys got enough in your backyard, skinheads in Voronezh killed 22 people some Africans and even a Spanish guy among.



http://www.compromat.ru/main/rogozin/musor1.htm

Clean up Moscow.

Originally Posted by bradclark1

Also, name two democratic countries that ever fought each other.

It depends on what to call "democracy". If we use the defenition of "democracy" used by USA - then, United States can't fight themself All other countries are potential targets. Including those, who usually are called democratic, but don't support american politics. Remember what happened shortly after beginning of war in Iraq?

Originally Posted by joea

Some of your other posts were strange, is the USA the only country to kill children? You mentioned WWII bombings, yes Japan was area bombed, Germany was area bombed by the British though, the USA "tried" precision bombing. I suppose the Red Army were careful not to hit civilians with artillery, katyushas or Pe-2 in Konigsberg or Berlin? German women had special lessons in how to become proletarians though, give it for free. US soldiers I guess always had money to pay. Lots of countries got the benefit of Soviet help, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Hungary. Sorry cheap shot comrade. BTW, I don't think Russia is a threat, or Islam...you guys got enough in your backyard, skinheads in Voronezh killed 22 people some Africans and even a Spanish guy among.

Of course. I never can deny this. Russia has many dark pages in history. But the idea of my posts is not "Americans are the worst" or "Russians are better".
The idea is "Americans are not better than others, but they think they're the best". US provides the policy "Everybody are equal, but there are some more equal then others". I wouldn't say if this is "bad" or not. I just want to say that this policy is unlike the ideals declared by USA. This is called "we say one thing, but do another". This is Soviet policy, Gentlemen! Used by US.

Let's just look in history.
There was USSR. Elders in Kremlin supposed that they are the only ones, who always know The True Communism Way. They took "copyright" for Communism. Any goverment could be call "Communistic" (or "Socialistic") only after aprroval from Kremlin. Any deviation from the "General Course of The Party" was punished. Remember Hungary, Poland. Some countries were forced to became Communist (Socialist) (Eastern Europe). Countries which broke away from USSR were declared "Dictatorship" (Tito's Yugoslavia, Albania).
And what can we see now?
There is USA. The White House supposes it is the only one, who always know Thr True Democratic Way. It took "copyright" for Democracy. Any goverment can be called "Democratic" only after approval from the WH. Any deviation from the policy predicted by Washington called "non-democratic" or "turning back" or "dangerous to mankind". Even the names of such countries become "bad" (French Fries->Freedom Fries). Some countries are forced to accept the ways of Democracy. Countries which openly reject american ways and lifestyle being declared "Bloody Dictatorship".
And where is the difference?

[bradclark1]

What I think is that you are paranoid about the U.S.

[kelawi]

Going back to the original point of the thread... let me play Devil's Advocate...

Put yourself in the position of the Kremlim. You've been fighting a series of proxy wars for a couple decades. Your primary adversary is the USA. You have made clear to everyone that airspace violations can and likely will result in a shoot down. One dark night a plane flying from the USA violates your airspace near a very sensitive and secret defense installation. You believe that the plane has just gathered some piece of intelligence and is heading for international airspace again. This intelligence may give your adversary an advantage in the ongoing "cold war".

You have only about 30 seconds to make a decision because it needs to be done before the plane leaves your airspace. What would you do?

Gen. Anatoly Kornukov upon orders from the Kremlin ordered the shoot down. As I see it, he had two options:

#1 Let the plane go placing not only himself and his family at risk, but potentially weakening his whole nation IF it was a spy plane.

#2 Shoot the plane down. Possibly killing several hundred innocents but possibly protecting millions of Russians IF it is spy plane.

I can't say I agree with the decision that was made, but I sure do understand it.

[Kapitan]

bingo hit nail on head

[joea]

Why the hell can't they apologise for the mistake instead of pointing fingers at the CIA?? Who the hell cares about the families killed? (Or the families killed on the Iranian airliner?) I mean the Lockerbie families were compensated, granted this was a deliberate act but still doesn't help.

Negr: I am no fan of Bush and the current USA foreign policy and the attitude "our way or the highway" in fact I am glad to see you got the point of the comparision with the USSR...except of course some of the US enemies really are dangerous (North Korea) others are just comic and not a threat imo (Venezuela).

But we went off topic, there still is a tendency (I know many Russians, ex-Soviets and ex-Yugoslavs, took one year of Russian as well) to never admit mistakes (like many neo-conservatives in the USA). The USSR was well within its rights to declare no-fly zones over its territory, but they should have come clean and said we made a mistake and offered compensation (did they in fact?). Instead you went off on a tirade and never answered what happened to the KAL 007? Did it exist? So what happened to those people? Like the friend of my boss' brother in law?? Just curious as to what happened to the Boeing 747 regardless of if there was a spy plane or not.

Originally Posted by bradclark1

What I think is that you are paranoid about the U.S.

Well, I can say the same: some people in this topic are paranoin about commies, USSR and Russia And, you see, some latest political moves force some people to... err... worry about the USA

Originally Posted by joea

Negr: I am no fan of Bush and the current USA foreign policy and the attitude "our way or the highway" in fact I am glad to see you got the point of the comparision with the USSR...except of course some of the US enemies really are dangerous (North Korea) others are just comic and not a threat imo (Venezuela).

I don't think NK is SO dangerous. Yes, they possess a Nuke. If it's not a bluff, one or two warheads are not a serious threat. Russia, which borders upon NK, must worry rather tha USA Koreans, afaik, haven't missiles or any other delivery means to reach USA. However, who knows...
What about Venezuela - yeah, Chavez sometimes can be really funny, so firehearted as early revolutioneers Though, he provides the idea of many LatAm citizens. The last Americas' summit dispalayed it: not all, but more and more SouthAmericans feel ill-willed with U.S.

But we went off topic, there still is a tendency (I know many Russians, ex-Soviets and ex-Yugoslavs, took one year of Russian as well) to never admit mistakes (like many neo-conservatives in the USA). The USSR was well within its rights to declare no-fly zones over its territory, but they should have come clean and said we made a mistake and offered compensation (did they in fact?). Instead you went off on a tirade and never answered what happened to the KAL 007? Did it exist? So what happened to those people? Like the friend of my boss' brother in law?? Just curious as to what happened to the Boeing 747 regardless of if there was a spy plane or not.

Yes, it's true, that many Russians still have that "Imperial" behavior - though Empire is no more. And, evidently, many our present rulers have the same.
But why do you think "they can't apologize"? Boris Yeltsin officialy apologized before South Korea in 1991 or 1992. The same time, ICAO conducted reinvestigation. You can find official ICAO's conclusion somewhere in the Net.
Anyway, "The Truth" classified Top Secret in both countries - USA and USSR/Russia.
Will any side declassify it once - that's the question.

[AG124]

What about the Libyan airliner (Flight 114) that was shot down by Israel in 1973? In this case, they definetely knew it was a civilian plane they were shooting at.

http://www.jerusalemites.org/crimes/massacres/9.htm

http://www.qadhafi.org/Libya/LIBYAN_...LIGHT_114.html

These sites appear to be very subjective, but I can't find much else (I am not going to take a side in this argument, as I don't have a completely objective account of what happened). Some sites only briefly mentionned the incident, others have set out to condemn Israel anyway, but all criticize the country for the incident. It seems pretty black and white from what I've read.

The United States refused any criticism of Israel, unlike in the case with the USSR, despite the fact that the destruction of the civilian plane was intentional.

I'm just wondering what people's thoughts are on this incident, especially in comparison to the two incidents that have just been discussed.

PS - If anyone can find a more objective site on the incident, please post it ASAP. Thanks.

Originally Posted by AG124

PS - If anyone can find a more objective site on the incident, please post it ASAP. Thanks.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19730221-1
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8744/tragedy.htm
http://www.washington-report.org/bac...830919003.html

[TteFAboB]

others are just comic and not a threat imo (Venezuela).

Indeed, now we know the American Invasion plan Hugo Chavez likes to talk about so much was a friendly training operation with the Spanish Air Force back in 2001.http://images.indymedia.org/imc/cana...ion_Balboa.pdf

He's not a threat to the US, but sadly he's a threat to his neighbors.

[sergbuto]

Originally Posted by AG124

The United States refused any criticism of Israel, unlike in the case with the USSR, despite the fact that the destruction of the civilian plane was intentional.

That is called double-moral standards. Everything is fine in Saudi Arabia and pretty bad in Iran.

[XabbaRus]

http://www.washington-report.org/bac...830919003.html

[AG124]

What about the USS Liberty that was attacked in 1967? Still seems to be a lot orf controversy surrounding this attack.

This is a timetable of events.

http://home.att.net/~texmextex/USS_L...Start_page.htm

These sites all blame Israel.

http://www.ussliberty.com/

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/moorer-liberty.htm

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/

http://www.rense.com/general26/ally.htm

http://www.washington-report.org/bac...93/9306019.htm

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ussliberty.html

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51a/023.html

http://hometown.aol.com/generalissimomh/

http://www.rense.com/general39/pilot.htm

Thess are Isreali sites exonerating Israel.

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/ussl...rael10034.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...y/liberty.html

This is a site with a list of articles which take Israel's side. I found a US site too, but lost it.

http://pnews.org/art/ussliberty.shtml

This site presents both sides of the argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

I really am not sure which side to believe. A lot of people seem to blame Israel though.