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06-24-17, 12:42 PM | #76 | |||
Stowaway
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If you must know, I broached once. First tutorial. Big deal. Never grounded my sub, never collided with anything. There goes your irrelevant assumption. Also, I never gave you any reason to pull things out of yours, I explained why I strongly dislike being forced to rely on manual controls, you simply won't accept this - but that is your problem, not mine. And no way how you try to twist it, having the Captain to control the sub 100% manually, or manual at all for that matter, is flat out retarded in a simulation that claims to put you in the captains perspective. End of. Quote:
Who are you talking to? Where did I say the enemy is threatening? I actually often said the opposite and complained about how I take down multiple SSN with them not evading torpedoes efficiently, or at least shooting back at the bearing of my, very loud, Mk48! Stop pulling things out of thin air, this is almost slander. Quote:
DW is a sensor and station sim. The very point of it is clicking buttons. There goes your argument. I shared my honest opinion about CW in its current state. As I said, just try to live with it. |
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06-24-17, 12:42 PM | #77 | |
Engineer
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What aid in DW are you talking about? Having a helmsman? I assure you, nobody would complain if Sonalyst would create fully working helm station with manual controls in DW. I also doubt they didn't do it to "aid" the player somehow. My guess would be that didn't feel it was necessary in the game - a thought which seemed consistent with pretty much every subsim developer. And I don't mean that the devs should remove manual controls from the game. They're fine and have their uses. But saying that the game shouldn't have optional direct commands is like saying you shouldn't have an autopilot in a flight sim, because "it will make you push that dreadful 'accelerate time' button". And the argument, that removing manual TMA and sonar and replacing them with mandatory manual helm controls will somehow overload the player is just absurd. Steering the boat does not require half as much focus and brain-power as working a TMA solution. It does, however require player's attention. And just like some of us find searching for solutions tedious, others find piloting the boat tedious. And my last point is... there's nothing wrong with time-acceleration during the boring bits. |
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06-24-17, 12:43 PM | #78 |
Stowaway
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06-24-17, 12:45 PM | #79 |
Old Gang
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Let me rephrase what I said about SIM vs Arcade.
There's no clear line that divides the two, it's just common sense. For example: ArmA 3 is a simulator, while Battlefield 3 is arcade. Project Cars is a simulator, while Gran Turismo 5 is arcade. This is not set on stone, but it's common knowledge and most agree. Sure there's always the die-hard fan of GT5 that stubbornly refuses to admit PCars is more of a sim than GT5, but we usually ignore those. It's like what my signature states. You can always throw gasoline in the fire in this argument saying that "hey, there's a submarine and it goes up and down and it has a periscope and it can fire torpedoes, therefore is a simulator" But in the same light then I could say MS Window's "Minesweeper" is a great minefield simulator. It has the mines and they can blow up. Bottomline is, Cold Waters is what it is and I can appreciate what they are trying to do and I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who will be able to have fun with it, as they are interested in arcadish aspects of games, but I'm not. You may also say "but in real life, did captains turn knobs, pressed buttons or turn on/off switches?" No, they gave orders for someone else to do it. HOWEVER, if they wanted to, they could. So, the more options the game gives, and the most realistic those options are, the more of a simulator it will be. Driving your sub around in 3rd person camera using WASD is, in my opinion, as arcade as a game can get. It's my opinion, I'm entitled to one. I'm not at all interested in persuading CW developers to release updates that add more to the realism, nope. The game is what it is, and I'm simply not interested in it. I'm just slightly surprised to see a game such as CW here at Subsim.
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06-24-17, 12:49 PM | #80 | ||
Ace of the Deep
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You know extremely little about the broader picture while playing the campaign (as is realistic). But even though you know very little, you automatically accuse. If you had promptly died to a Silex, and that ARG landed, some infantryman in Norway may well be thinking about why "no NATO assets" helped them out. Would that be fair? Quote:
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06-24-17, 12:49 PM | #81 | |
Stowaway
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06-24-17, 01:02 PM | #82 | |
Engineer
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If you're interested, you can actually find out, but you'll have to put up with WSAD controls. Or wait until the devs add proper commands. Either way if you could spend enough time with the game you'd find out that there's enough things in CW that would classify it as a sim. Just not a hardcore one. |
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06-24-17, 01:18 PM | #83 | |
Stowaway
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06-24-17, 01:36 PM | #84 | |
Bosun
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Then maybe you should have written that, rather than what you actually wrote. Do you understand that or should I explain?
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“Oh God, thy sea is so great and my boat is so small” “As we sail thru life, don't avoid rough waters, sail on because calm waters won't make a skillful sailor” |
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06-24-17, 01:38 PM | #85 | |
Stowaway
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It was my mistake to assume some people would get the point anyways. This still doesn't explain your off-topic drive-by posting though. Your comment is off topic and only derails the thread. |
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06-24-17, 01:47 PM | #86 | |
Bosun
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“Oh God, thy sea is so great and my boat is so small” “As we sail thru life, don't avoid rough waters, sail on because calm waters won't make a skillful sailor” |
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06-24-17, 01:53 PM | #87 |
Stowaway
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06-24-17, 02:23 PM | #88 | |||||||||
Ace of the Deep
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And if it isn't a significant congitive load, is there really anything complaining about? You call a game "unfinished" because of a supposed flaw that only caused an insignificant cognitive load on you in any case? Quote:
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Further, here: Quote:
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I know I am outnumbered by about 100:1 here but yes, that, and I wasn't specifically referring to DW there - the most universal, commonly given "aid" in all of subsims seems to be the automatic helm and plane control. Quote:
You probably don't need the helm as much in DW anyway, for the simple reason that the torpedoes in DW are much less persistent. You can dodge them just fine using the bearing intercept receiver and the automatic control system. Everyone is staring desperately out the 3D view in Cold Waters because the torpedoes are persistent in their reattacks. Quote:
In a subsim, the automatic steering dominates in virtually all circumstances, including combat. Quote:
Further, DW is not really that punitive compared to CW so even if you are stuck or just feel things aren't going fast enough for you ... let's just say I confess to the sin of using radar and active sonar ... and DW let's me get away with it. Plus there's a pause button, which no one seems to complain as unrealistic. Now, I'm not sure whether manual helm "should" overload the player. I do, however, notice a large amount of complaints over this topic. I also notice that more than one Youtuber with a video where they "mysteriously" broached. I actually have a confession (he's blaming the game, of course) from a "Brygun" over at Steamcommunity where he was having fun with the 3D camera watching his weapon hit a ship while on ascent to periscope depth ... then he broached and died. That along with my own experience suggests that the manual helm puts a significant (and IMO healthy) cognitive load on the average player, certainly forcing them to pay attention. And shouldn't the captain "pay attention" to his subs' maneuvers? But realistic subsims don't really make us do that. They might make us care about the TMA solution, but maneuvering seems beneath our notice, something to be fobbed off to the Autocrew. The result are players like Brygun, whose inattentiveness cost him his game, yet he blames the game! Quote:
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06-24-17, 02:54 PM | #89 | |
Torpedoman
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06-24-17, 03:16 PM | #90 |
Seasoned Skipper
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This is generally only a case in those rare situations where you encounter enemy forces literally next to their target itself.
When we get around to doing the Soviet campaign and modelling all the NATO assets, then we'll have the assets available to enable some of these friendlies in the campaign, similar to Strike Fighters. Also I don't get this fanatical devotion to 'realism'. This game most closely resembles the old Microprose 'action sims' or Novalogic 'light sims' which focused on entertaining action but with real world units with real-world performance. This insistence on real world stats is what sets sims apart from arcade games - Ace Combat has meticolously modelled real-world planes and cockpits, but there is no flight model, no weapon parameters, etc. Novalogic's F-22 on the other hand is a sim - it has rudimentary radar modes, different types of aircraft have different stats in line with published figures, and weapons behave and feel like they are based on the real thing. The fact that Falcon 4 was available at the same time and much more hardcore realistic doesn't mean F-22 automatically gets denigrated to an arcade game. It's just a more casual take on the same idea. You will find a lot of people fondly remember this style of 'lite sim' even today. |
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