Religion, who cares?

[Sixpack]

Science is merely human discovery of pieces of Work done by the Creator.

Human beings are mortal busy little ants of the Earth, but with a conscience which strikingly seems to relate to a far superior Creator, resulting in faith or denial/rejection. That sets us apart from earth's other creatures.

Mortals who take science as a graduator of all things and think their work of discovery is prove of their personal brilliance are in fact to be pitied, and are certainly not enlightened in my book.

Scientists should only show gratitude for the Gift of Discovery. They didnt create anything !

Creation was done by a much greater Force then these ants can apparently perceive. In this regard a goatherd in a rural village somewhere in Mongolia or even Jemen can be more enlightened than the arrogant scientist who seeks personal glory.

[Hitman]

Abraham wrote:

That's your opinion, which I - partly - share by the way. But I don't think you can call it scientific evidence, I would call it a likely thesis (or perhaps subjective knowledge).
Still, if - as you believe to have proven - one God exists

Fish wrote:

No, not at all.

A "intelligent will", exist only in your mind. We, have no clue whats out there, as the litle thinks in a drop of water have, when I look to them through a microscope.

With greatest respect towards your opinions, I can't see single rational argument in those words, which counterargues what I said

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Abraham wrote:

Fish wrote:

With greatest respect towards your opinions, I can't see single rational argument in those words, which counterargues what I said

What I mean is, we fabricate opinions and arguments in our brains, but we don't know it means something in the universe. We are bound by our possibility's.

[Abraham]

Yep, our knowledge is limited, sometimes very limited. And therefor based on faith, conviction, whatever you want to call it. Very human indeed...

[Wim Libaers]

Originally Posted by Abraham

Didn't care to read the article either, it's the kind of stuff that is actually written not to be read... But is this pink trout?

Well, I read it. Interesting. Not necessarily correct, but still interesting.



Now, for my personal opinion: I try not to think about it much. It is an area with much uncertainty, and as far as I can see no good way to get reliable answers. The plethora of religions that are at least in some ways opposed to each other illustrates the problem. Even if they were in agreement, that still would not mean they agreed on the right thing.

So what do I do? In the absence of good information, I postpone forming opinions on the subject. I don't claim there certainly is a God, and I don't claim there certainly is no God. I just accept that I don't know, until I get a good reason to start believing. Of course, standards of proof are subjective. Some "feel" there is a God. As a catholic by education, I certainly have had some special feelings at some moments, during church services. Some might think they have been touched by God or something. Personally, I do not know the cause of those feelings, and I do not want to ascribe them to God just because I do not really understand them (after all, that was what more primitive people did with all things they saw, lightning, the sun, a tree, all were gods). And I do know the mind can perform some strange tricks occasionally, in situations that definitely aren't religious.

I guess that if, at some point, God decides he really wants me to know about him, being omnipotent he'll have no problem to demonstrate his existence in a blatantly obvious way, without requiring me to interpret vague feelings or the conflicting writings of various religions.

I do not see any problem with the kind of God proposed by Hitman. It is not in conflict with anything we know, one just takes the aggregate of rules that govern our universe, both those already known and those yet to be discovered, and perhaps those that will never be discovered because they're too subtle or inaccessible, then defines the cause of those rules to be God. But that seems to add little to saying that those rules merely exist.


By the way, Sixpack, your view of scientists seems to be slightly exaggerated. It strongly resembles some Hollywood and comic book representations of scientists, and a few real ones, but most scientists I know are just very interested in discovering how things work. Of course, I'm doing research myself, so I may be biased here.

[Sixpack]

Most likely you are, Wim

Even if you'd one day find a cure against cancer, I just hope you will always remember it was because of the Gift of Discovery that was granted to you. Be thankful.

Some are destined to be great football players, others musicians, and some were born to become determined scientists. They are all 'gifted' in order to put it to good use.

Because we are created, the real glory has to go elsewhere. In this respect muslims stuck closer to the truth than a growing number of westerners who think they can do without.

(note: I havent been to church since early this year when my daughter was baptised, so I fit into the church-abandoning group. I feel I am too busy to go, and whatever excuses. Somehow I think I am doing the wrong thing)

[Abraham]

Straight and honest as always, Sixpack.
And probably right!

I am unbeliever. Not an atheist, just unbeliever. Why? Maybe because I grew up in USSR. Though, I'm bapthised in Russian Orthodox church. It was "in fashion" during a first post-soviet years - to revive religion. Mother brought icons and religios books to home. First, it was interesting - to read those books and to learn prayers. That time I was about 10-11 y.o. But later I was bored of it. Implicit faith just didn't come.
And now, I thing to myself that this is good - I haven't any veil on my eyes. I'm not belong to any religion, so I can respect all of them. And I don't have to call to kill either muslims or christians or buddhists or someone else...

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Negr

I'm not belong to any religion, so I can respect all of them. And I don't have to call to kill either muslims or christians or buddhists or someone else...

Religious people don't have to do that either!

[Terrax]

Reading these threads has backed up what I have come to believe in the past 2 decades. Most people think that Their religion is the right one, and the rest are wrong. Even in Christianity, the different denominations argue that their's is right, and other denominations are wrong. I was raised in a strict Baptist home, and my Dad was a fire and brimstone minister. There were rules and commandments to be followed to the letter, or you would burn in Hell for all Eternity. In my late teens, I met a Muslim, who would be described as an extremist from the posts I've read on this board. We talked quite a bit about religion, but he had the common view his religion is the right one, and the rest, particularly Christianity, are wrong.

I've done a lot of reading since then on different religions and their histories. The Crusades convinced me that there are no Gods. A Christian God wouldn't have let the Crusades fail to retake His holy land. A Jewish God would have prevented the Holocaust, and all the persecutions the Jews have suffered over the centuries. An Islamic God, though it may have helped kick the Christians out during the Crusades, wouldn't have let a false religion spread over a large part of the planet.

I think religions were created when humans were a young race. People worked very hard just feed themselves, plus dealing with disease, famine, and rival humans who had no qualms about killing each other. They didn't have long life expectancies, and death was a constant companion with tribe and family members. Life was harsh in the extreme, so why live it. So they created Gods. When they had food, it must have been a gift from their God, not the fact that they found the fruit tree or planted the crops. And when they died, their God would take them to a paradise, where the harshness of life would be left behind, and they would be reunited with long dead family members and all would be happy and good.

So that is why early Man got up and toiled in the fields and endured the suffering of everyday life and made offerings to his God. Because when his life would end, he would be with his dead wife and sons who had succumbed to disease or animal attacks, and his God would provide all they needed. If early Man didn't have a glorious afterlife to look forward to, I think quite a few of them would have asked "What's the point, life is so hard" and tossed themselves off a cliff somewhere. So Gods were invented, because Man has to have something to believe in. He couldn't find anything, so he made sonething up himself. Over the centuries, these conjured up beliefs have grown into the Religions we have today.

I have no faith in a Diety, so unless I see some scientific evidence that there is a God, I'm not going to believe in it's existance. That's one of the reasons I haven't posted in these discussions. I believe what I believe, and someone telling me what they feel isn't going to change my mind. It's possible I'm wrong, and that's why, when discussing religions with my Sons, I tell them to do some research, and find the one that feels right to them. Make your own decision based on what you know. Don't believe something just because someone tells you it's true. Back it up with research. Or don't pick a religion at all, it's not mandatory, it's your choice.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Abraham

Religious people don't have to do that either!

And totally non-religious people sometimes have to.

Originally Posted by Abraham

Religious people don't have to do that either!

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

And totally non-religious people sometimes have to.

Why? Unbelievers has no interest in doing that. They can call to kill some specific enemies. But killing millions of people only because they are praying to other god? No, only religious fanatics can do that.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Negr

Why?

Self defense.

Unbelievers has no interest in doing that. They can call to kill some specific enemies. But killing millions of people only because they are praying to other god?

I never said that. Again, I was referring to self defense.

No, only religious fanatics can do that.

And certain commnunist regimes.

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Self defense.

Hmm. Interesting. :hmm: Defence means that someone wants to attack you. Who and why?

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

And certain commnunist regimes.

Sure! Communism (at least trying to build it ) is a religion - with its gods, saints, churches, prayers and devotions

[XabbaRus]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...643573,00.html