Senate report on CIA torture techniques released

[Catfish]

"... [...] The former vice president showed little remorse for the dozens of prisoners who were found to have been wrongfully detained, for the man who died in the program, or for people like Khaled El-Masri -- a German citizen who was shipped off to Afghanistan and sodomized in a case of mistaken identity."

Mr 'Dick' [sic!] Cheney is so full of it, I am sure he did the latter himself

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

@Skybird

And this is where our points of view differ, as I assume that:
- not all humans are rational.
- not all humans are egoistical.

I say there is some raitonality and much egoism to be found in any human - and usually both must not be opposiutes, but also can be mutually supporting.

- a perfectly rational human would not only act on his best interests, but on the over all community's best interests (well Economics and Game Theory advanced beyond the Adam Smith).

No. Not only is there no such thing like a perfect human or a perfectly rational human, rendering the whole argument too abstract as if it has any meaningful point - you also imply that altruism in princiapl always is rational. Which it is not: not as a goal in itself, and not as a egoist mechanism to trade some altruistic own behaviour for something one wants to get in return, making that altruism a selfish (=egoist) motive again.

Whether one sees altruism as paying off or not, and thus one practices it, last but not least depends on empiric experiences in the past one hads had. Inm other words: the probability for altruistic behavior to a certain degree depends on situational context. For example the altruistic act I am willing to show for some people - I refuse to show for others.

Generalising altruism in principle as a quality that always is to be seen as somethign good and psoitve, is not an object of rationality, but morality. And morals can very well violate rationality, and vice versa.

Back to the topic - as not all humans are rational, then torture (and such interrogation techniques) may be highly ineffective - ie what if the suspect happens to be a fanatic and doesn't value his own survival?

I adressed that already, didn't I:
1. EVERYBODY has his breaking point, believe me. EVERYBODY.

2. I explained an inevitable preconditon that must be fulfilled in order for increaisng the probabiilty for a success in torture-based interrogation. that it the verifiation of the information given to escape the implementaiton of firther tiorture must be such that it vcan be gained very close in time - close enough so that the deliquent understanbds that just a lie will be discovered so soon that it will not buy him time and no escape from further pain, agony, fear. This already reduces the situations when it might be both moral and rational to consider torture, by several factors.

Beyond that I made it clear that it shall not be a routine from the ordinary tool box of lw enforcement. It must remain to be an absolute and total exception from the rule. Which in case of the CIA story it obviously was not, not by a wide margin.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

You really don't see a difference between the hand wringing Western states do over comparatively minor transgressions and the anonymous bullet to the back of the head that enemies of the Eastern states usually recieve?

"Minor transgressions"? Then it is a difference.

Needless to say I most likely consider much of what you probably would still see as "minor transgressions", as major criminal issues too severe in their future-crushing consequences and distortions of law and society, as if I would agree to call them as anything "minor" only.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

"Minor transgressions"? Then it is a difference.

Needless to say I most likely consider much of what you probably would still see as "minor transgressions", as major criminal issues too severe in their future-crushing consequences and distortions of law and society, as if I would agree to call them as anythiing "minor" only.

No I said "comparatively minor transgressions", as in compared to the methods used by others. Note this does not excuse our use of such physical coercion but i'm also not going to pretend that it's anything near as bad as what has been perpetrated throughout human history.

[Skybird]

Since I was mentioning corrupted political systems, I did not so much thought about violence in law enforcement and counter terrorism, but politics, finance, economics and social structures in society when comparing. Both nationally , and internationally.

When comparing torture methods alone, as you seem to do, I said this:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...1&postcount=41

[ikalugin]

@skybird
I think we could get that discussion into the real of private messages.

As to the breaking point - it does indeed exist, however for a number of suspect/interrogator combinations it exists after the suspect dies (goes insane and so on) or after whatever event you were trying to avoid passes to be.

[Wolferz]

It's nice that the Senate has made this travesty public and all but,
What the heck are they going to do now that they and we all know about it?
Same thing they've been doing... NOTHING!
The police state will not allow it.

Clearly, the architects should be tried and jailed but we all know that's not going to happen.

Wait a few years and we can read all about it in Dubya's memoirs entitled...
"How I Screwed The World With My Big Dick Cheney"

[MH]

Originally Posted by Wolferz

Wait a few years and we can read all about it in Dubya's memoirs entitled...
"How I Screwed The World With My Big Dick Cheney"

Maybe ...or maybe this post Bush hysteria will end and the subject will be approached in more balanced / objective manner.

Meanwhile be wary children...Bush will come and eat you.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by MH

Maybe ...or maybe this post Bush hysteria will end and the subject will be approached in more balanced / objective manner.

Meanwhile be wary children...Bush will come and eat you.

Hysteria? Hysterical laughter!
Good to see there's a democracy at work, and not the middle ages bloodline succession to the throne.
I am sure there was no better man in the whole USA, to deserve that rank, and position, than the son of former president Bush senior.

[Bilge_Rat]

sooooooo, if I understand the message corectly...

...subjecting detainees to enhanced interrogation techniques is BAD, the USA does not do that sort of thing. We have to keep the moral high ground...

...however, killing suspected "terrorists" and their entire family with Drone strikes is perfectly fine...

[MH]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Hysteria? Hysterical laughter!
Good to see there's a democracy at work, and not the middle ages bloodline succession to the throne.
I am sure there was no better man in the whole USA, to deserve that rank, and position, than the son of former president Bush senior.

I'm all for democracy.
I'm happy you have a faith in it.

[Wolferz]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Hysteria? Hysterical laughter!
Good to see there's a democracy at work, and not the middle ages bloodline succession to the throne.
I am sure there was no better man in the whole USA, to deserve that rank, and position, than the son of former president Bush senior.

From what I have seen from my armchair, we ceased being a democracy the day those planes hit those buildings. Sure we still elect those who supposedly lead us but, we all know that's just the public face of it. The dog and pony show that prevents the somnambulent masses from waking up to what's really going on.... The global chess match for control of resources.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

sooooooo, if I understand the message corectly...

...subjecting detainees to enhanced interrogation techniques is BAD, the USA does not do that sort of thing. We have to keep the moral high ground...

...however, killing suspected "terrorists" and their entire family with Drone strikes is perfectly fine...

So you say the the drone strikes are wrong so we should also allow torture? I don't get it. This is not just a Bush bashing thing, it's much bigger than that.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

So you say the the drone strikes are wrong so we should also allow torture? I don't get it. This is not just a Bush bashing thing, it's much bigger than that.

It is not something any country should be proud of also no country should torture prisoners.
The USA has used this method extensively on some 100+ prisoners according to the report which indicates this issue was not taken so lightly... considering the scope of the conflict and its nature.
The presumed innocent people detained by mistake relisted , not shot in the head and thrown in a ditch.

This is probably no more than Saddam Hussein used to torture senselessly in a day.
You know the guy west feel sorry for so much now because he really knew how to run Iraq...while west had no right to mess with his business because the place turned out crazier than expected.

[Skybird]

These are extreme things being thought about in this thread, and i doubt that it is possible to form generalised blueprints "one size fits all imaginable situations" on when to do what, in every situation matching the according criteria to allow the measurements being considered. you have to consider them on a one-by-one basis instead, always, and decide new and from scratch every time such an extreme case shows up. It remains to be an act of balancing on the sharp edge of the sword.

And never shall it become a thing of routine. When deciding for torture, death penalties, and drone strikes in situations of non-declared war, become acts of routine - then you know that you are living in a dictatorship for sure.