Nelson Mandela dead at 95

So you disagree with one source. Fine. But your choosing to try and discredit the whole body of facts using one snippet. Do you also disagree with the findings of the Human Rights Commission? Are they also a "loony" group? What about the Truth and Reconciliation Commision of South Africa, who provided the data? Are they also "loony"? Your avoiding documented facts because you can't discredit them and they don't fit your view. Thus you have to resort to name calling and attempts to make me personally look bad since you can't defeat the facts. A case of "if you don't like the message, try and discredit the messenger".

Shoot the message and the messenger where appropriate, you have already shown with your nonsense that you are not using those sources you mention.
Anyone with an ounce of sense would have gone nowhere near the crazy loons you used as a source, unless of course he shared their message.

[August]

Necklacing is the practice of summary execution and torture carried out by forcing a rubber tire, filled with petrol, around a victim's chest and arms, and setting it on fire. The victim may take up to 20 minutes to die, suffering severe burns in the process.

The practice became a common method of lynching among black South Africans during disturbances in South Africa in the 1980s and 1990s. The first recorded instance took place in Uitenhage on 23 March 1985 when black African National Congress (ANC) supporters killed a black councillor who was accused of being a White collaborator.[1]
Necklacing "sentences" were sometimes handed down against alleged criminals by "people's courts" established in black townships as a means of enforcing their own judicial system. Necklacing was also used by the black community to punish members of the black community who were perceived as collaborators with the apartheid government. These included black policemen, town councilors and others, as well as their relatives and associates. The practice was often carried out in the name of the ANC. Winnie Mandela, then-wife of the imprisoned Nelson Mandela and a senior member of the ANC, even made statements that endorsed its use.[2] The ANC officially condemned the practice.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing

Nice link august the relevant part is from Haplos "source" which is not his source.
so the ANC condemned "necklacing" then?
Damn, so much for that then.
Your link also leads to the US congress report if you want a local(to you) take on it all.
or you could go to the T&R source ,which Haplo didn't read, and work your way through section 6 of the first ANC report.

Plenty of interesting stuff in those sources, several that are worth mentioning considering the nonsense some people have been writing using their "very racist white supremacist " sources.
Apparently it found that the Apartheid regime in itself constitutes a crime against humanity....and the war against that regime is a lawful and just cause.
You really think people would check their sources before they claim their initial nonsense is backed by fact from legitimate sources.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

If Mandela was white he would be a hero to you, depite his tactics.


Maybe he was sick of Europeans trying to tell South Africa what to do...


No one critisizes America for breaking away from Britain, I see his movement as the same thing, a fight for freedom.

I am sure his tactics were bad, but WHAT EFFING RIGHT DOES EUROPE (yes Europe , you all started this imperialistic crap, and have a hard time letting it go) HAVE TO INFLUENCE A SOVERIEGN NATION?

Why does the Boer oppression endear so many outside of S Africa so much., mad you lost the territory? You lost the 13 colonies too, come take those back tough colonist Euro guys?


Leave them alone! For real, what interest is there for you besides a 200 year old imperialistic pissing contest.

(EDIT: So many people who minimize what Mandela did, it pisses me off. sorry.)

Ahh... nice! Is that widest paint brush you found? All Europeans are responsible of colonial powers' mess? Sweet!

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

All Europeans are responsible of colonial powers' mess? Sweet!

It was Bush's fault as well.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

It was Bush's fault as well.

Bush wasn't European?

[Bubblehead1980]

Purposely targeting civilians/non combatants is what, when you think about it, defines an actual terrorist from a freedom fighter etc.Tribes, by using "No taxation without representation" as a way to say the patriots who fought the American Revolution were terrrorists like Mandela once was, is just an inaccurate and invalid comparison.

Mandela was an actual terrorist at one point, he served nearly 30 years of hard labor for his crimes and did change, he saw the real route to change was not through terrorism, but through a peaceful political process.Killing innocent people on purpose accomplishes nothing and takes away the legitimacy of your often legitimate arguments against the state. Of course the dark side of Mandela's earlier life gets pushed under the rug but overall he was a great man who ended an ugly chapter in history through the proper means.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Bush wasn't European?

Never stated he was. But these days it is always Bush's fault.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Which was, as far as you mean slavery, a side-effect, and probably not really the intention, some letter quotes from Lincoln leave little doubt that the slaves was not that much a point of interest for him. The real intention was that Northern states wanted to socialize the debts they had accumulat, and demanded the southern states to pay for them. Which the South obviously did not like that much, and why should they - at that time it was no one-national union with a centralised one-governmet-fits-all. Why should the one who managed economy better, pay for the debts resulting from the other who wasted more than he could afford? there is a reason why the Southern economy and finance system was annihilated so mercilessly by the North. It was to destroy any possible basis for autonomy and to make sure the South could never afford to live independant from the North again.

This leaves me with a couple of problems.

Problem 1: I can show equal documentation which would prove that nothing in the above post is true, but I can't do it here. Which leads to...

Problem 2: I realize that Soopaman2 referred to the American Civil War first, but his post was about collateral damage. Yours was about causes which, as I have pointed out many times before, are a major side-tracking of the thread. This is especially true for me, because I want to have that discussion but can't and won't do it here. If you want to continue it please start a new thread, or go back to one of the several Civil War threads. If not, I'll drop it after this.

@bubbles

Purposely targeting civilians/non combatants is what, when you think about it, defines an actual terrorist from a freedom fighter etc.Tribes, by using "No taxation without representation" as a way to say the patriots who fought the American Revolution were terrrorists like Mandela once was, is just an inaccurate and invalid comparison.

Not at all, if you read the inquiry Haplo didn't read but made claims about then you get the answer.
The comparison is valid unless you are saying those Colonials who rebelled were wrong.

Mandela was an actual terrorist at one point, he served nearly 30 years of hard labor for his crimes and did change

Can you name any countries which didn't condemn the show trial?
You are correct that he did change though.

he saw the real route to change was not through terrorism, but through a peaceful political process.

Unfortunately the real route is usually a combination of the two.

Killing innocent people on purpose accomplishes nothing and takes away the legitimacy of your often legitimate arguments against the state.

Please read the Truth Commissions report. The relevant ANC document is only just over 200 pages.
As I said earlier section 6 is the most relevant but it is really worth reading the whole thing, in fact it is worth reading all the findings on all the factions.
Two of the other sections which really stand out are those on the States policy of deliberately targeting innocent civilians, and the States black flag operations deliberately murdering innocent civilians and claiming it was "terrorists" doing the murders.

Of course the dark side of Mandela's earlier life gets pushed under the rug but overall he was a great man who ended an ugly chapter in history through the proper means.

I disagree, nothing was pushed under the rug, he was very open about it. The only people who try to push it under the rug are those who know little about it, and in fairness if they know little about it then there opinions on it don't really carry any weight.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

filled with a flammable fuel and then lit on fire as a means of execution "heroism" or "fighting for freedom" - then there just is no reasoning with you.

Also known as a 'Kentucky"

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

This leaves me with a couple of problems.
I'll drop it after this.

Many thanks for your timely gravitas! Now back to Foster's, Lone Star, and Hamm's so Privateer can kick my ass as promised inasmuch as this thread become boering as well as unnecessarily contentious.

However Martin Luther King said it best and I cannot believe that it would have escaped Mandela's notice: "He who accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it." Apartheid, along with much of the murderous, enslaving, dehumanizing colonialism of three centuries on the 'dark continent' WAS evil. And based on race and or tribalism, markedly so, as in Rawanda and the (Belgian)Congo, to this day. Mandela saw the evil, refused to accept it and did not cooperate with it. He studied evil's war manual and used enough of it to defeat it till no longer needing the tools of it. All government is bad; the trick is to live where it is least worst...and in Africa today that is a tough call; Mandela made South Africa the least worst call at present...

[BossMark]

Nice to see Man utd fans observe a 90 minute silence for Nelson Mandela.

[vanjast]

Having lived through both eras in ZA, and still live here, this link gives a very accurate description - http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-...la-not-so-fast

I take my judgement from 1994, when ZA had so much promise, and this is my conclusion.. short and sweet. Mandela, Mbeki, Zuma and the ANC are complete failures.. actually nothing short of disastrous.

You lot must remember that a lot of 'smoke and mirrors' at at play here, and has been for a long time. Your political leaders, rock stars and other herds of cattle are playing the same game with you with this funeral ! Think for yourself and see through the nonsense.

I don't know where anyone here was taught to hate black people.. we were taught to hate the ANC.. a then communist (still is) terrorist organisation, so that we'd be ready for war in the bush during conscription time. Remember the ANC consisted of white people too Another thing you don't hear about is that, although we were segregated (separated) a lot of black and white grew up together in this country - there was not complete separateness that is often depicted in the anti-apartheid videos. If you want to know how apartheid really ended.. look up the United Party (Helen Suzman, Colin Eglin) Nationalist Party (FW de Klerk, The Referendum)... yup a lot of white people involved there - Have Nelson and the ANC told you that ?? or do they continue to bleat about apartheid, some 20 years later, to cover up for their failures. BS can only go so far.

After the funeral it's going to be 'fun' here.. and it's already started...

Vanjast, I am afraid that piece uses many of the same sources as earlier.
While I agree with most of your post, that article contains too much nonsense from extremist white supremacists in SA and itself is published by one of those rather crazy groups that believe everything is a global jewish conspiracy.

One part of your post is off though.

Have Nelson and the ANC told you that ??

Mandela was very open and honest about that, it is what sets him apart from all the other two bit revolutionaries who have existed in all the other nations round the world.

[vanjast]

In fact, it's all true.. whether it comes from white supremacists or not. I must say they've done a very good job at exposing this lot - done their research well!
Unless you live here you wouldn't know.
Mandela and the ANC haven't been honest about a lot of things.. and we can see that here as we know exactly where it comes from and what the purposes are. Smoke and Mirrors as I've mentioned...

The world is currently operating on 'herd mentality' with regard to this person. So much hype, that it's almost impossible to admit that they've really stuffed it up. Time will tell.