The Israeli Chamber Orchestra will break with tradition to play a work by Hitler's fa

[Gerald]

[Takeda Shingen]

I am impressed that we are having a discussion about academic music. Kudos you all.

[Gerald]

I also,

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I am impressed that we are having a discussion about academic music. Kudos you all.

[frau kaleun]

[_dgn_]

Well ! I'm trying to understand the problem (sorry for my poor english).

So Wagner's music was banished in Israel ? Why ? Apparently Wagner was nazi. Difficult to believe : Wagner died in 1883, Hitler was born in 1889. So improbable meetings between them ! In this case, another proof : Adolph Hitler liked Wagner's music. Thus, Wagner was nazi. So Wagner's music was banished in Isreal, same manner that jewish composers' music was banished in the national-socialist Germany. Reprisals, apparently.

A simple reflection : A.Hitler liked vegetarian cook. So is vegetarian cook also prohibited in Israel ?

And what about Nietzsche's philisophy ? I think that it must be also banished in Isreal. Why ? Because Nietzsche was also nazi. Difficult to believe : he died in 1900 (a little early to become member of the NSDAP, founded in 1920). Let us admit ! In this case, another proof : his philosophy was liked by the national-socialist Germany. But his thought was deformed by National-Socialism ! Well, a third proof : the philosopher Martin Heidegger (born in 1889. 1889 ? It's very suspect : please, read above) wrote many eulogistic books about Nietzsche and he was member of the NSDAP. Thus Nietzsche was nazi.

However he didn't like Wagner's music. No indulgence in this case ?

Seriously, this concert takes (took) place in a particular town in Germany : Bayreuth. Initially known for the Margravine Wilhelmina's (sister of Frederick the Great) baroque "Opera House", Bayreuth is now the temple of Wagnerianism with its Festival, sung (and played) in the red brick "Festspielhaus", built by the Maestro himself.

A concert in Bayreuth, during the Festival, without any piece from the Maestro. Unthinkable ! Like a Baroque (or classic) concert in the Thomaskirche (St. Thomas Church) in Leizipg, without any piece from of the Master of the place, the Cantor J.S.Bach ...

And the Israel Chamber Orchestra played, not inside the "Festspielhaus", not for the Festival, not for Wagner. It was invited for celebrating Liszt's 200th birthday. Why Bayreuth ? Because Liszt died in this town. Why ? Because Liszt lived in Bayreuth ? Why ? His daughter Cosima lived in this town. Why ? Because she married Richard Wagner.
Oddly, nobody said that Liszt was nazi. However his daughter Cosima married a Nazi. However his grandson Siegfried (not really a catholic name !) married a (english !) Nazi woman, Winifred. Nazi, Winifred ? Yes, she was Hitler's friend, since 1923. She even gave to Hitler paper, on which he wrote "Mein Kampf" as prisoner ...

Yes : in spite of all that, Liszt is not considered as "nazi". He has some chance. Why ? Because these journalists (who generally like to create scandals and discusses) are often uncultivated. They don't know that Nazis liked Liszt's music. Really ? It was the piece played at the end of the German "Sondermeldung" (Special messages), or named "Russland-Fanfare" (Fanfare of Russia) : it's really easy to recognize the symphonic poem "Les Préludes".

And what did play the Orchestra ? A sulfurous piece ? A thundering melody, like "Les Préludes" ? The "Ride of the Valkyries" ? No (sorry for you, frau kaleun !) : only a small (almost private) piece, named "Siegfried Idyll", composed by Wagner for his wife, when their son Siegfried was born ...

In fact, only courtesy, quite simply !

Finally, a concert of the Israel Chamber Orchestra playing in GERMANY some Wagner's piece of music don't mean that the things changed. Playing or broadcasting Wagner's music is still prohibited in ISRAEL.

I ingenuously thought that the WWII was over. Apparently, not !

Cheers.

[MH]

Originally Posted by _dgn_

Finally, a concert of the Israel Chamber Orchestra playing in GERMANY some Wagner's piece of music don't mean that the things changed. Playing or broadcasting Wagner's music is still prohibited in ISRAEL.

Cheers.

Who claim that Wagner was a nazi?

In Israel its a law since 1948
Maybe the law is irrelevant in 2011 but it has no effect on you so don't take it personally.
I don't care much about Wagner but as long as there are holocaust survivors who simply cant stand the thought of allowing Wagner in Israel I respect that.
It probably will change in near future if enough people will mind or care about the issue.

Did you know that Beatles where banned from visiting Israel in 1965.
Now...that's stupid and cultural loss.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by _dgn_

Well ! I'm trying to understand the problem (sorry for my poor english).

So Wagner's music was banished in Israel ? Why ? Apparently Wagner was nazi. Difficult to believe : Wagner died in 1883, Hitler was born in 1889. So improbable meetings between them !

It's not a matter of Wagner having been a Nazi, which naturally is impossible since the Nazi party didn't exist while he was alive. However Wagner was already known for his anti-semitic views during his own lifetime, primarily because he went so far as to have them published several times over:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard...d_antisemitism

That he became associated in the public consciousness with the Third Reich certainly doesn't make him any more appealing in this respect, but the damage had already been done by Wagner himself.

Saying that Wagner is considered anti-semitic simply because Hitler liked his music is, IMO, getting the initial cause and effect in the wrong order. If anything, it's more likely that the Third Reich latched on to Wagner because he was a prominent German composer whose published views on Jews and Judaism were already in line with Nazi ideology.