A system of revenge

[Skybird]

http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.i...y-manning.html

PFC Manning is currently being held in maximum custody. Since arriving at the Quantico Confinement Facility in July of 2010, he has been held under Prevention of Injury (POI) watch.

His cell is approximately six feet wide and twelve feet in length (= 1.80x3x60m).
(...)
PFC Manning is held in his cell for approximately 23 hours a day.

The guards are required to check on PFC Manning every five minutes by asking him if he is okay. PFC Manning is required to respond in some affirmative manner. At night, if the guards cannot see PFC Manning clearly, because he has a blanket over his head or is curled up towards the wall, they will wake him in order to ensure he is okay.

A prison should not be a luxury hotel, but this is not only hilarious, but is a way of mistreating somebody by a form of torture that tries to evade being labelled as torture.

You could as well put him into a coffin-sized box and put him on a drip to feed him, and lay a pipe for breathing air. Isn't it enough that he can breath, lives, and can move his fingers?

[August]

He should have thought of that before he betrayed his country.

[the_tyrant]

I suppose its progress?
back in the cold war didn't people who leak information to the KGB get executed?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

I suppose its progress?
back in the cold war didn't people who leak information to the KGB get executed?

I would prefer death to a life-long imprisonment under circumstances like these.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

I suppose its progress?
back in the cold war didn't people who leak information to the KGB get executed?

No. John Anthony Walker is up for Parole in 2015. Pelton got 3 life sentences. Hannssen got life. Aldrich Ames got life.

The Rosenbergs were the only ones I think, and that was way back in the 1950s.

[Skybird]

Thats says nothing, August. With that statement you can excuse abandoning any legal standards or basic principles of justice in Western traditions' understanding completely. You can even excuse electroshocks or stage-tribunals like the Volksgerichtshof with that.

Formally he has not been found guilty of any crime, his guilt has not been proven at court, or am I wrong? That means he must be assumed innocent, for the time being - a vital principle of all Wetsern legal systems that is. In dubio pro reo. The guilt must be proven, not the innocence.

And even if he is found guilty of a crime, this does not justify the legal system striking back at him by the means of psychic or physical torture. At least as long as the claims of America for what principles it stands still have any meaning.

Justice and law enforcement - are something totally different than revenge. Cruelty by the authorities - must and shall have zero space in any legal system worth that name.

He should have thought of that before he betrayed his country.

It could be said that he was serving his country, after all some of the cables just illustrate how much the politicians and military are betraying their country on a regular basis.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

It could be said that he was serving his country, after all some of the cables just illustrate how much the politicians and military are betraying their country on a regular basis.

That's a very good point you make. He didn't betray his country, he betrayed his government (and that's a good thing if you ask me).

Unlike in the case of Assange (who as a (foreign!) citizen not working for any government is IMO not obliged to not publish any information), I'm not entirely against prosecution though as he did steal information while serving in the military. In my book that would qualify as espionage, no matter how much I agree with him releasing everything.

But deliberately mistreating him does seem to be quite a bit over the top.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Thats says nothing, August. With that statement you can excuse abandoning any legal standards or basic principles of justice in Western traditions' understanding completely. You can even excuse electroshocks or stage-tribunals like the Volksgerichtshof with that.

Formally he has not been found guilty of any crime, his guilt has not been proven at court, or am I wrong? That means he must be assumed innocent, for the time being - a vital principle of all Wetsern legal systems that is. In dubio pro reo. The guilt must be proven, not the innocence.

And even if he is found guilty of a crime, this does not justify the legal system striking back at him by the means of psychic or physical torture. At least as long as the claims of America for what principles it stands still have any meaning.

Justice and law enforcement - are something totally different than revenge. Cruelty by the authorities - must and shall have zero space in any legal system worth that name.

First you're assuming any of these claims are true Skybird. Do you have any proof of this from a halfway neutral source or should we just take his lawyers claims as gospel?

Second, from the description his life in prison awaiting courts-martial is still far easier than the lives of his fellow soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq who he has put at increased risk by publishing their operational details for our enemies to read and learn from.

Third, TV time and regular showers do not compare to electro shocks or kangaroo courts and i'm kind of insulted that you'd actually try to extend my statement to include them. Why not just claim that any incarceration at all is a violation of his rights and let the little traitor go free right?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

First you're assuming any of these claims are true Skybird. Do you have any proof of this from a halfway neutral source or should we just take his lawyers claims as gospel?

Second, from the description his life in prison awaiting courts-martial is still far easier than the lives of his fellow soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq who he has put at increased risk by publishing their operational details for our enemies to read and learn from.

Third, TV time and regular showers do not compare to electro shocks or kangaroo courts and i'm kind of insulted that you'd actually try to extend my statement to include them. Why not just claim that any incarceration at all is a violation of his rights and let the little traitor go free right?

YOU feel insulted...???

The insult lies in implying that keeping somebody in a box the size of three or four beds all day long, asking him every five minutes that he is not asleep and "well", and effectively denying him the opportunity to sleep - is not torture.

The insult lies in implying that his suffering is lesser than that of the troops in Afghanistan's garrisons. I'd prefer their "fate" to his any time I would need to chose.

The insult lies in implying that just because his laywer claims his innocence, his guilt must no longer be proven.

You are overstepping the borderline to pure cynism, August. Or as I said in the headline: to mere will of taking revenge.

In the medieval, and later, even just 150 years ago, people were chained to the wall and kept in fixiated psoitions all day long, in order to "heal" their mental disorder, or to make it easier for prison guards. Much of what we see in Guantanamo, and now with the conditions of Manning's imprisonment, is not far away from that.

Normal people do not even treat their dogs like that. This is torture as severe as torture that leaves scars and bleeding wounds, this torture carried out in a way that it hopes to evade being labelled as torture, this torture that tries to leave no openly visible traces of torture. Like waterboarding, which is nothing else but the implementation of enforced physical and mental agony.

The waterboarding was introduced to create information. But torturing Manning like this, does not even serve the information business, which leaves a joy for cruelty, sadism and/or the desire to take revenge by making him suffer the only alternative explanations.

But it may help to make him agreeing to coinstruct - most likely: false - accusations against Assange having ordered him to steal the infomation, in exchange for reliefs of his imprisonment conditions. If there is one person America hates even more than Manning, then it is Assange.

Hi Osama. Long time no see!

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

YOU feel insulted...???

The insult lies in implying that keeping somebody in a box the size of three or four beds all day long, asking him every five minutes that he is not asleep and "well", and effectively denying him the opportunity to sleep - is not torture.

You misread it. He is not denied the opportunity to sleep. I don't know what right a prisoner has to not be bothered at all like you seem to be demanding. The man is on suicide watch! You'd prefer they just leave him alone so he can figure out a way to kill himself?

The insult lies in implying that his suffering is lesser than that of the troops in Afghanistan's garrisons. I'd prefer their "fate" to his any time I would need to chose.

Really? you'd prefer an IED blowing up in your face? You'd prefer eating dust and sweating your butt off waiting for the Taliban to attack? You'd prefer having scorpions and spiders bite you like what killed a young man from a nearby town that was stationed in that hell hole just a couple weeks ago? You'd prefer having your limbs blown off or being blinded to that nice safe cell? Please.

The insult lies in implying that just because his laywer claims his innocence, his guilt must no longer be proven.

I never implied that at all. I think he's guilty. I have the right to my opinion. You'll note that I am neither judge or jury in that case.

In the medieval, and later, even just 150 years ago, people were chained to the wall and kept in fixiated psoitions all day long, in order to "heal" their mental disorder, or to make it easier for prison guards. Much of what we see in Guantanamo, and now with the conditions of Manning's imprisonment, is not far away from that.

By that line of reasoning any incarceration at all is "not too far away from that". He is not being kept chained to the wall, he is not kept in a fixated position.

Normal people do not even treat their dogs like that. This is torture as severe as torture that leaves scars and bleeding wounds, this torture carried out in a way that it hopes to evade being labelled as torture, this torture that tries to leave no openly visible traces of torture. Like waterboarding, which is nothing else but the implementation of enforced physical and mental agony.

Now you're just being a drama queen. You just can't compare a heated cell and TV, book reading, visitor and letter writing privileges with torture that "leaves scars and bleeding wounds".

But it may help to make him agreeing to coinstruct - most likely: false - accusations against Assange having ordered him to steal the infomation, in exchange for reliefs of his imprisonment conditions. If there is one person America hates even more than Manning, then it is Assange

Yeah right, Just more unsupported speculation from a guy with a known history of bad mouthing my country. Tell me why we should listen to anything you say?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by August

First you're assuming any of these claims are true Skybird. Do you have any proof of this from a halfway neutral source or should we just take his lawyers claims as gospel?

If it is not true, the basis for this discussion would not exist. Thus, if we are to discuss this, in the absence of any clear source saying otherwise, we discuss it on the basis it is true.

Besides, you seem to think it is just desserts for him to be treated this way, so why do you doubt the veracity?

Second, from the description his life in prison awaiting courts-martial is still far easier than the lives of his fellow soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq who he has put at increased risk by publishing their operational details for our enemies to read and learn from.

If all of this helps bring them home, would he still have, in overall terms, put them at "increased risk"?

And as for whether it is easier, perhaps we can trade. Manning goes to Iraq, one lucky grunt gets out of Iraq but goes into Manning's Supermax cell with the regime as described. Tell me if you can get anyone to volunteer.

[August]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

If it is not true, the basis for this discussion would not exist. Thus, if we are to discuss this, in the absence of any clear source saying otherwise, we discuss it on the basis it is true.

Besides, you seem to think it is just desserts for him to be treated this way, so why do you doubt the veracity?

We have already established that the claims on the website are exaggerations and that several of the takes here on it are deliberate misconceptions Kaz. Let me turn the question around. By what reason should I blindly trust it's veracity like you seem so ready to? I can't believe you're part of the crowd who believes Manning is being starved for oxygen are you?

If all of this helps bring them home, would he still have, in overall terms, put them at "increased risk"?

But it won't help bring our soldiers home, we're in this until we win or loose and some low level classified documents are going to change that. What it will do however is lend assistance to the enemies war effort by giving them insight into our operational practices and procedures. If that's not a traitorous act then nothing is.

[danlisa]

Originally Posted by August

He should have thought of that before he betrayed his country.

Really, and I suppose loyalty to ones country is more important than exposing high level corruption, lies to the general populous and the general arrogance/ignorance of the US political system.

If you want to bury your head and pretend none of this happens, carry on. PFC Manning should be applauded for his stance and the 'Land of the Free' should practice what they seem intent on preaching.

Unfortunately, the US is allowed (in no small part by it's population) to say one thing and do another.

*Slow clap* @ the United States of America, land of justice and home of the free.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by danlisa

Really, and I suppose loyalty to ones country is more important than exposing high level corruption, lies to the general populous and the general arrogance/ignorance of the US political system.

If you want to bury your head and pretend none of this happens, carry on. PFC Manning should be applauded for his stance and the 'Land of the Free' should practice what they seem intent on preaching.

Unfortunately, the US is allowed (in no small part by it's population) to say one thing and do another.

*Slow clap* @ the United States of America, land of justice and home of the free.

Aye. Pretty much all discussion coming from the Americans here is how Manning should be punished for what he's done. Not about what the government did and how the government should be punished.

Danlisa is right here, you do seem like ostriches following the flock of the Master Ostrich, all burying your heads deep in the sand.