Time to regulate Bible and samurai sword ownership

[CCIP]

I honestly think that the focus on believing in something greater than oneself misses one important catch: the fact is that the much more important belief is that in the connected-ness of everything (and it's not even a belief per se - unlike God it is very directly observable). At any level - great or small - the same basic principles work. Universally-speaking, every action requires energy, transforms something, and has a proportionate reaction. We might not know all of the laws involved in this, but thus far I don't think anyone can reasonably find evidence that the universe is anything but a closed, equivalent-exchange system. And that's what allows people to be perfectly reasonable and, in effect, moral without believing in something necessarily greater, but believing that everything has consequences. You can hide from them, but everything is so connected that in reality, you actually can't. Karma's a bitch, as the saying goes. You can only pretend by denying you're connected to anything, or deferring to authority.

The fallacy of "something greater than oneself", IMHO, is that it allows people to deny responsibility for their actions and deny connections that make their actions have essentially universal (if small) effects. But the fact is that every single thing you do every day is no less an act of God than some big, impressive miracle. And God may be purported act at a different level, but does that really mean "greater"? Has anyone really observed something that goes beyond the simplest laws of matter and energy transfer? I mean sure a bulldozer can move a bigger rock than you can. Sure a computer can solve a bigger equation than you can. Does that make the bulldozer and the computer 'greater' than you and therefore little gods of a sort?

I think there's only three possibilities that exist with God involved (1) ignore the whole-ness of existence, defer to God as something free of the system and something that releases you from responsibility to abiding by equivalence rules. The system, meanwhile, works independently of what you actually believe, within its observable balance whether you believe God can break it or not. (2) suggest that God is a higher-level actor within the system than you are, following the same fundamental equivalence. But doesn't that make greatness superficial, at least as an object of worship? (3) suggest that God IS that system, and God is essentially everything. But that doesn't make God greater than you. It makes you [a small piece of] God, acting no less on behalf of God than God acts on his own behalf. Then why the distinction?

In any case, the sign of a moral person is not doing as God [supposedly] says. It's doing as God does, and respecting the universal, unfailing connections to all existence that we inevitably live in. And that doesn't really require a view that elevates God above anything.

[Armistead]

If you study history, you'll find pagan gods were created in mass to control people. Maybe a failure of our evolution that we can't rise up in goodness on our own, maybe God exist and deemed us all born sinners with evil spirits..not sure which is worse.

Polybius, the historian, says: "Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world;

Livy, the celebrated historian, speaks of it in the same spirit; and he praises the wisdom of Numa, because he invented the fear of the gods, as "a most efficacious means of governing an ignorant and barbarous populace.

Strabo, the geographer, says: "The multitude are restrained from vice by the punishments the gods are said to inflict upon offenders, and by those terrors and threatenings which certain dreadful words and monstrous forms imprint upon their minds...For it is impossible to govern the crowd of women, and all the common rabble, by philosophical reasoning, and lead them to piety, holiness and virtue.

Bible, true or not, an eternal place of torture can't be found in it. Anyone that takes time to study can see all the purposeful mistranslations replacing the grave with an eternal hell. The early church for 400 years taught that Christ came to save people from eternal death, not eternal torture. Once government got involved, it pulled every pagan idea about hell and found a way to put it in the bible and it's been doctrine since.

Whatever is true or not, religion has caused most problems in the world because all religions believe their God or Gods will torture everyone but them. Maybe this is the only way mankind could evolve, in fear, but if we can never get past it man will destroy this world fighting over religion as we've seen in the last few years.

[Armistead]

Castout, if you've truly seen God, I guess you no longer operate ..."by faith." I thought God was no respector of persons, why show himself to you and not the rest of us?

One thing for sure is a verse in proverbs
"As a man thinketh, so is he"

Don't get me wrong, I can't claim great faith. I myself would rather deal with sincere doubt than dishonest faith. Certainly, when I went outside my church doctrine using an open mind to find faith, I was not looking for doubt. However, sincere study led me to doubt. Not that I'm an atheist, I'm not. I find God may be possible in many ways, but I can't prove it, so I operate on doubtful faith and at the same time hate any religion that states only they're right....and that's about all of em.

I actually love the teachings of Christ and in many ways find him credible if studied in the greek outside of mans doctrines. Christ said follow one law, basically to love others and clearly taught we love others by "doing them no harm." All through the bible this is the theme that we love others by doing them no harm, not telling them what to do.

[frau kaleun]

@CCIP: I am ing you so much right now.

[August]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

That also seems to be true of many people who do claim to believe in something greater than themselves. The difference I observe is that most of them act that way about their belief rather than their own selves, but they still act that way. Believers aren't annoying in and of themselves, and neither are non-believers. Arrogant people of any stripe are.

Many believers try to be truly humble, but for many more it's not really about God, but about MY God. There are also many like me, who don't actively believe there is nothing greater, just passively acknowledge that we don't know for sure one way or the other, and can't see that anyone else does either.

Call it what you want Steve. I'm just stating what my personal observations have been over the half century I have been on this planet.

Human nature is what it is and the religious are no exception. Apparently some people here have evangelists chasing them down in the street trying to get them to convert but that has never been my experience. The only people i've ever met who've come off acting superior or intolerant about their beliefs (or lack of them) are atheists.

[August]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Really, there's no right answer to the issue, it tends to be different for everyone.

If you really believe that then why the Demotivator pic about atheists "Winning since 33 AD"?

What you and Epicurus do realize apparently do not realize is that Gods real gift to humanity is not security but rather free will. You cannot guarantee the former without eliminating the latter.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by August

Call it what you want Steve. I'm just stating what my personal observations have been over the half century I have been on this planet.

Human nature is what it is and the religious are no exception. Apparently some people here have evangelists chasing them down in the street trying to get them to convert but that has never been my experience. The only people i've ever met who've come off acting superior or intolerant about their beliefs (or lack of them) are atheists.

You'll find your share of them in any group. I once did a paper on "The Bible Belt" down south and it's connection to the southern Civil War era. I grew up in my teens in mostly white country fundie Bap. Churches. Our Pastor actually called blacks the N word from the pulpit. Just four years ago I went to a large church where the person speaking said he saw two gays walking and wanted to run overthem, using "kill a queer for Christ" as a comment. Mass laughter...I walked out, no, not a gay bone in my body, but that should offend anyone. There is a mass intorerant behavior in many churches down south, can't say elsewhere and I have no doubt it's left over behavior connected to the southern heritage down here.

Any group that thinks only they're right poses big problems for me regardless of what they believe.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by August

If you really believe that then why the Demotivator pic about atheists "Winning since 33 AD"?

What you and Epicurus do realize apparently do not realize is that Gods real gift to humanity is not security but rather free will. You cannot guarantee the former without eliminating the latter.

How do we have free will, aren't we born doomed already?

Do you think man always had freewill, spiritually speaking? If not, when did he gain it?

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by August

If you really believe that then why the Demotivator pic about atheists "Winning since 33 AD"?

The picture had nothing to do with what me and tyrant were talking about, hence I posted it as a reply to Castout's post.

I don't kill because I simply don't want to kill, some other may be held back by fear of "something bigger" punishing him if he/she does so. That's what I mean't by "it's different for everyone".

I'm not here to tell what you can believe into and what not, just bringing my side to the discussion.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by August

The only people i've ever met who've come off acting superior or intolerant about their beliefs (or lack of them) are atheists.

I've seen more than one case of self-proclaimed Christians doing that right here on Subsim. No, they weren't trying to convert anybody, but they certainly had their share of disdain for anyone not them, including but not limited to Atheists. I agree it's human nature, but in my experience it applies to all humans, myself included.

If you really believe that then why the Demotivator pic about atheists "Winning since 33 AD"?

I can't speak for Dowly, but I would say "because it's funny".

What you and Epicurus do realize apparently do not realize is that Gods real gift to humanity is not security but rather free will. You cannot guarantee the former without eliminating the latter.

In this I completely agree. If man is not free to choose evil then there is no point in being good, as there would be no "good" or "evil". My only disagreement is whether it actually comes from God or from our innate capacity for reason.

Originally Posted by Armistead

How do we have free will, aren't we born doomed already?

How so? Why would you make that connection?

Do you think man always had freewill, spiritually speaking? If not, when did he gain it?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. What is your opinion on the subject?

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Armistead

If you study history, you'll find pagan gods were created in mass to control people.

If you study history, you will also find that the control Germanic Paganism exercised on its subjects was way less than the control the christian church had in the middle ages.

Originally Posted by Armistead

Once government got involved, it pulled every pagan idea about hell and found a way to put it in the bible and it's been doctrine since.

Pagan idea? I'm sorry to tell you but you obviously know nothing about Paganism. You may at the very least want to read the wikipedia page about Hel before you make any wild claims.

And to quote from another wikipedia page:

There is reason to assume that the ideas of Hel are coloured by Christian influences which taught that there was a realm of punishment which opposed the paradise

Doesn't quite match with what you claim, does it?
Yes, the Pagan Hel has had influences on the christian Hell. But the ideas of Hell as a place of punishment are largely christian.

Originally Posted by August

Because people who believe that there is nothing greater than themselves tend to be, in my experience, narcissistic, self centered and anti-social.

Then you've clearly met the wrong atheists.
About 99% of my friends are atheists, and none of them is anything like what you perceive atheists to be.

[August]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Then you've clearly met the wrong atheists.
About 99% of my friends are atheists, and neither of them is anything like what you perceive atheists to be.

"Neither" of them? I'd hardly say a sampling of two indicates a trend.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by August

"Neither" of them? I'd hardly say a sampling of two indicates a trend.

None of them. Not everyone is a native English speaker, you know

[Armistead]

Dark,

The concept of hell was embraced by almost every culture and tribe before Christianity. Not that I assume those that we consider pagan any less than other religions, it's certainly a cultural issue often difficult to find exact beginnings for the earliest people. It is strange many cultures have almost this exact belief in man's beginnings, such as the Mayans, Hmong, ect., maybe that points to some earlier connection of man. Most pagan religions
believed in torture, stages of punishment, ect. There are so called several
entry points even now where different tribes entered the hell of their beliefs.

Any study of early Christianity until Roman control can slowly find the past concepts of hell being embraced by sects of Christianity, but it didn't become a doctrine until about 500AD. Anyone that has studied the issue can see Christianity embraced concepts from pagan religions and used them as tools of fear to controll the masses and a place of eternal torture was one. Most of the themes of Christianity existed long before in other religions.

They're atleast 4 men previous to Christ where the theme was the same.
They were born of virgins, wise men followed stars, they died on tree's/crosses to redeem man, were called son of God. Just search Horus or Dionysys, almost the exact story as Christ.

Simply, it's clear to me that much of previous religions were used to create
Christian doctrine.

From wika as an example.
--Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.
--He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles.
--He “rode in a triumphal procession on an donkey.”
--He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.
--Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25.
--He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.
--He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.”
--He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,” Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.”
--He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.
--His sacrificial title of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” intimates he was hung on a tree or crucified.

[the_tyrant]

Originally Posted by August

"Neither" of them? I'd hardly say a sampling of two indicates a trend.

Stop nitpicking already
he meant "none"