Time to regulate Bible and samurai sword ownership

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by August

Because people who believe that there is nothing greater than themselves tend to be, in my experience, narcissistic, self centered and anti-social.

That also seems to be true of many people who do claim to believe in something greater than themselves. The difference I observe is that most of them act that way about their belief rather than their own selves, but they still act that way. Believers aren't annoying in and of themselves, and neither are non-believers. Arrogant people of any stripe are.

Many believers try to be truly humble, but for many more it's not really about God, but about MY God. There are also many like me, who don't actively believe there is nothing greater, just passively acknowledge that we don't know for sure one way or the other, and can't see that anyone else does either.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Regardless of the possibility of what God is or isn't, man created a God to use for their benefit to control people out of guilt and fear, then call it love.

Men don't create God. God still exists even when all men reject the possibility of God existing. I know this I saw God. And I dare to say I'm not the only one. I even dare to say this and making myself vulnerable to mockings. .
m fully aware mys statement may draw flaks and I know it's not a proof in itself but I'm compelled to testify what I know even when no one could accept it not because I want to draw flaks on myself or trolling but because I believe the truth is a force to be reckoned with in itself that it needs neither acceptance nor approval from any people to be what it is, the truth.

Originally Posted by DarkFish

The only assumption I made about the christian god is that he judges people (partly) according to their beliefs (see the 10 commandments for example).
You obviously know the christian religion a lot better than I do, so if I'm wrong here, please say so.

Well I think I wrote whatever I felt need to. I just want to add that our life is so short. A decade is like a blink of an eye and we only live a few decades 6 , 7 , or 9 if we are lucky. I say live this life to the fullest. What is beyond our understanding is meant to be beyond our understanding. Talking about it won't change anything because the understanding is limited. Our understanding is limited because our experience is limited. Go out, drink beer, find the women you love, make a family, be happy at work and die peacefully. Live well die well! After all life is exciting! It is! After all we are each our own consciousness! The witnesses and flavors of this whole grand spatial universe, created or not, what a spectacle

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Castout

Men don't create God. God still exists even when all men reject the possibility of God existing.

@Tyrant

I guess we just have to agree to disagree on the issue. Really, there's no right answer to the issue, it tends to be different for everyone.

[the_tyrant]

Originally Posted by Dowly

@Tyrant

I guess we just have to agree to disagree on the issue. Really, there's no right answer to the issue, it tends to be different for everyone.

of course mate, lets keep it as a Modus vivendi

[CCIP]

I honestly think that the focus on believing in something greater than oneself misses one important catch: the fact is that the much more important belief is that in the connected-ness of everything (and it's not even a belief per se - unlike God it is very directly observable). At any level - great or small - the same basic principles work. Universally-speaking, every action requires energy, transforms something, and has a proportionate reaction. We might not know all of the laws involved in this, but thus far I don't think anyone can reasonably find evidence that the universe is anything but a closed, equivalent-exchange system. And that's what allows people to be perfectly reasonable and, in effect, moral without believing in something necessarily greater, but believing that everything has consequences. You can hide from them, but everything is so connected that in reality, you actually can't. Karma's a bitch, as the saying goes. You can only pretend by denying you're connected to anything, or deferring to authority.

The fallacy of "something greater than oneself", IMHO, is that it allows people to deny responsibility for their actions and deny connections that make their actions have essentially universal (if small) effects. But the fact is that every single thing you do every day is no less an act of God than some big, impressive miracle. And God may be purported act at a different level, but does that really mean "greater"? Has anyone really observed something that goes beyond the simplest laws of matter and energy transfer? I mean sure a bulldozer can move a bigger rock than you can. Sure a computer can solve a bigger equation than you can. Does that make the bulldozer and the computer 'greater' than you and therefore little gods of a sort?

I think there's only three possibilities that exist with God involved (1) ignore the whole-ness of existence, defer to God as something free of the system and something that releases you from responsibility to abiding by equivalence rules. The system, meanwhile, works independently of what you actually believe, within its observable balance whether you believe God can break it or not. (2) suggest that God is a higher-level actor within the system than you are, following the same fundamental equivalence. But doesn't that make greatness superficial, at least as an object of worship? (3) suggest that God IS that system, and God is essentially everything. But that doesn't make God greater than you. It makes you [a small piece of] God, acting no less on behalf of God than God acts on his own behalf. Then why the distinction?

In any case, the sign of a moral person is not doing as God [supposedly] says. It's doing as God does, and respecting the universal, unfailing connections to all existence that we inevitably live in. And that doesn't really require a view that elevates God above anything.

[Armistead]

If you study history, you'll find pagan gods were created in mass to control people. Maybe a failure of our evolution that we can't rise up in goodness on our own, maybe God exist and deemed us all born sinners with evil spirits..not sure which is worse.

Polybius, the historian, says: "Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world;

Livy, the celebrated historian, speaks of it in the same spirit; and he praises the wisdom of Numa, because he invented the fear of the gods, as "a most efficacious means of governing an ignorant and barbarous populace.

Strabo, the geographer, says: "The multitude are restrained from vice by the punishments the gods are said to inflict upon offenders, and by those terrors and threatenings which certain dreadful words and monstrous forms imprint upon their minds...For it is impossible to govern the crowd of women, and all the common rabble, by philosophical reasoning, and lead them to piety, holiness and virtue.

Bible, true or not, an eternal place of torture can't be found in it. Anyone that takes time to study can see all the purposeful mistranslations replacing the grave with an eternal hell. The early church for 400 years taught that Christ came to save people from eternal death, not eternal torture. Once government got involved, it pulled every pagan idea about hell and found a way to put it in the bible and it's been doctrine since.

Whatever is true or not, religion has caused most problems in the world because all religions believe their God or Gods will torture everyone but them. Maybe this is the only way mankind could evolve, in fear, but if we can never get past it man will destroy this world fighting over religion as we've seen in the last few years.

[Armistead]

Castout, if you've truly seen God, I guess you no longer operate ..."by faith." I thought God was no respector of persons, why show himself to you and not the rest of us?

One thing for sure is a verse in proverbs
"As a man thinketh, so is he"

Don't get me wrong, I can't claim great faith. I myself would rather deal with sincere doubt than dishonest faith. Certainly, when I went outside my church doctrine using an open mind to find faith, I was not looking for doubt. However, sincere study led me to doubt. Not that I'm an atheist, I'm not. I find God may be possible in many ways, but I can't prove it, so I operate on doubtful faith and at the same time hate any religion that states only they're right....and that's about all of em.

I actually love the teachings of Christ and in many ways find him credible if studied in the greek outside of mans doctrines. Christ said follow one law, basically to love others and clearly taught we love others by "doing them no harm." All through the bible this is the theme that we love others by doing them no harm, not telling them what to do.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Armistead

If you study history, you'll find pagan gods were created in mass to control people.

If you study history, you will also find that the control Germanic Paganism exercised on its subjects was way less than the control the christian church had in the middle ages.

Originally Posted by Armistead

Once government got involved, it pulled every pagan idea about hell and found a way to put it in the bible and it's been doctrine since.

Pagan idea? I'm sorry to tell you but you obviously know nothing about Paganism. You may at the very least want to read the wikipedia page about Hel before you make any wild claims.

And to quote from another wikipedia page:

There is reason to assume that the ideas of Hel are coloured by Christian influences which taught that there was a realm of punishment which opposed the paradise

Doesn't quite match with what you claim, does it?
Yes, the Pagan Hel has had influences on the christian Hell. But the ideas of Hell as a place of punishment are largely christian.

Originally Posted by August

Because people who believe that there is nothing greater than themselves tend to be, in my experience, narcissistic, self centered and anti-social.

Then you've clearly met the wrong atheists.
About 99% of my friends are atheists, and none of them is anything like what you perceive atheists to be.

[August]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Really, there's no right answer to the issue, it tends to be different for everyone.

If you really believe that then why the Demotivator pic about atheists "Winning since 33 AD"?

What you and Epicurus do realize apparently do not realize is that Gods real gift to humanity is not security but rather free will. You cannot guarantee the former without eliminating the latter.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by August

If you really believe that then why the Demotivator pic about atheists "Winning since 33 AD"?

What you and Epicurus do realize apparently do not realize is that Gods real gift to humanity is not security but rather free will. You cannot guarantee the former without eliminating the latter.

How do we have free will, aren't we born doomed already?

Do you think man always had freewill, spiritually speaking? If not, when did he gain it?

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by August

If you really believe that then why the Demotivator pic about atheists "Winning since 33 AD"?

The picture had nothing to do with what me and tyrant were talking about, hence I posted it as a reply to Castout's post.

I don't kill because I simply don't want to kill, some other may be held back by fear of "something bigger" punishing him if he/she does so. That's what I mean't by "it's different for everyone".

I'm not here to tell what you can believe into and what not, just bringing my side to the discussion.

[kiwi_2005]

Originally Posted by Castout

Men don't create God. God still exists even when all men reject the possibility of God existing. I know this I saw God.

Umm sorry mate but if you saw God you would be dead.

Moses speak to God face to face. But Moses did not see God in all his Glory otherwise Moses would be destroyed at the sight of him.

In our fallen human condition, if God were to fully reveal Himself to us, we would be consumed and destroyed.

Maybe you saw an angel or an evil spirit pretending to be God

Just like many have said Jesus is here or over there or I seen Jesus they are liars or tricked by an evil spirit. No one will see Jesus until the 2nd coming.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

Umm sorry mate but if you saw God you would be dead.

Moses speak to God face to face. But Moses did not see God in all his Glory otherwise Moses would be destroyed at the sight of him.

In our fallen human condition, if God were to fully reveal Himself to us, we would be consumed and destroyed.

Maybe you saw an angel or an evil spirit pretending to be God

Just like many have said Jesus is here or over there or I seen Jesus they are liars or tricked by an evil spirit. No one will see Jesus until the 2nd coming.

Yes it is said that if one looked at the face of God one would die. Moses saw God's back and his face shone for weeks.

But to tell me that I didn't see God would not be exactly right too. But understandable since you do not know what exactly that I saw. And yes I'm impressed by that conclusion that proved you know what you believe in Frank.

I'd cite the following two verses but I won't explain anything. I'm too tired to explain anything. I'm just saying the following verses are true:

Only God lives forever! And he lives in the light that no one can come near. No humans has ever seen God or ever can see him. God will be honored, and his power will last for ever. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:15-16).

Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying, Thus you shall bless the people of Israel: you shall say to them, "The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace." So shall they put my name upon the people of Israel, and I will bless them. (Numbers 6:23-27, ESV)


I only seek to share a little something not cause argument. Again these things are personal. Writing this is not proof unto itself but a mere sharing. No you don't have to believe anything. I'm just clarifying. I don't need anyone to believe this I'm just telling you I saw Christ when I was a kid so I know God is real. Don't believe it it's okay. Can't accept it it's okay. No it wasn't angel Frank nor it was Satan the deceiver. I can tell this because God gave me love an out of the world love for Jesus and only then I asked to be allowed to see Jesus and those verses explained what I saw. I was expecting a bearded man but seemed Christ is too much for me(obviously). No I'm not looking for attention but obligated to testify any time I can to people who think that men created God or that God was fictitious. I'm not forcing anything but just presenting my little testimony when it fits. And no this doesn't answer all questions about God either.



A little something(light really and hopefully inspiring and no not religious)

[August]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

That also seems to be true of many people who do claim to believe in something greater than themselves. The difference I observe is that most of them act that way about their belief rather than their own selves, but they still act that way. Believers aren't annoying in and of themselves, and neither are non-believers. Arrogant people of any stripe are.

Many believers try to be truly humble, but for many more it's not really about God, but about MY God. There are also many like me, who don't actively believe there is nothing greater, just passively acknowledge that we don't know for sure one way or the other, and can't see that anyone else does either.

Call it what you want Steve. I'm just stating what my personal observations have been over the half century I have been on this planet.

Human nature is what it is and the religious are no exception. Apparently some people here have evangelists chasing them down in the street trying to get them to convert but that has never been my experience. The only people i've ever met who've come off acting superior or intolerant about their beliefs (or lack of them) are atheists.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by August

Call it what you want Steve. I'm just stating what my personal observations have been over the half century I have been on this planet.

Human nature is what it is and the religious are no exception. Apparently some people here have evangelists chasing them down in the street trying to get them to convert but that has never been my experience. The only people i've ever met who've come off acting superior or intolerant about their beliefs (or lack of them) are atheists.

You'll find your share of them in any group. I once did a paper on "The Bible Belt" down south and it's connection to the southern Civil War era. I grew up in my teens in mostly white country fundie Bap. Churches. Our Pastor actually called blacks the N word from the pulpit. Just four years ago I went to a large church where the person speaking said he saw two gays walking and wanted to run overthem, using "kill a queer for Christ" as a comment. Mass laughter...I walked out, no, not a gay bone in my body, but that should offend anyone. There is a mass intorerant behavior in many churches down south, can't say elsewhere and I have no doubt it's left over behavior connected to the southern heritage down here.

Any group that thinks only they're right poses big problems for me regardless of what they believe.