AI Wolfpacks?

[JScones]

Wah?

The largest number of U-boats that attacked a convoy was 51 boats (some sources say 41) from four wolfpacks against ONS-5 in April 1943. Not a regular occurance mind you.

The 42-ship convoy was escorted by a destroyer, frigate and 4 corvettes.

The end result: 12 ships sunk...7 U-boats lost.

Hardly what I'd call the wreaking of havoc.

Methinks some people may need to read up on actual Wolfpacks. http://uboat.net/ops/wolfpacks/ gives a nice summary of most (it's incomplete) of the wolfpacks including size and ships sunk. Some romanticists may find the stats surprising...

[dize]

ill take it that you dont wah and some ppl @ me, coz its basicly what i was trying to point out.
submerged attacks, especialy in night/bad vis conditions where much harder to execute than in sh3. standart attack was still high speed surface approach when those big battles like ons-5 happened. to swamp the escort screen was the only way to get boats into firing position. most of the times...

[JU_88]

Wolf packs or not, just though thought of there being 'other subs' out there' (freindly & hostile) gets me all warm and fuzzy inside

In SH 3 & 4 It felt so loney being only functional Submarine on the entire face of the planet.

[SubV]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Wolf packs or not, just though thought of there being 'other subs' out there' (freindly & hostile) gets me all warm and fuzzy inside

In SH 3 & 4 It felt so loney being only functional Submarine on the entire face of the planet.

Agreed. All we need (in my opinion) is random imitation of wolfpack attacks and chance to occasionally meet another sub in the ocean (say hello, exchange food and fuel, write a record to captain's journal).

[Mittelwaechter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convoys_HX_229/SC_122

[IanC]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Precisely....and very achievable nowadays. All that is needed is for the devs to have the time and the permission/remit

Very achievable back in 1993. This is from subsim's own review of AOD; "You'll take a real beating. Occasionally in the career mode you'll be part of a wolf pack and some of the other U-boats will draw off some of the heat."
Now, somebody might say that programing wolfpacks nowadays is extremely complex, etc etc... But I still don't buy it. SHIII should've had wolfpacks and SHV must have them. I can't believe this very important feature will be omitted again.

[Crimguy]

If we have wolfpacks, we certainly need milk cows.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Crimguy

If we have wolfpacks, we certainly need milk cows.

Milkcows proved modable in SH3, I even remember kit bashing a Type 14 modle out of the type 9 for GWX 2.0 lol.
It would be nice if the devs added some detail to the whole process of refueling and rearming with one. an nice little animation perhaps... no biggie though.
Oh an Sub Ai will just make Milkcows behave better if they come under attack.

Assuming an AI torpedo controller is made, i hope the devs will attatch it to Torpedo boats as well as Submarines. Anyone remember crapping them selves the first time they ran in to an Elco in SH3?
I was surpprised it didnt slam a torp into me, so fired up the mission editor and made an Entire Amarda of Elcos attack a hipper class cruiser (to see i they would sink it...)
meh, like constipated lambs to the slaughter, they didnt even make a dent. So like everyone - I just blasted Elcos with AA guns after that.
A real Sub captain would not have been so brave, the Royal Navy lost many Submarines in the Med, many at the hands of Italian PT boats.

That's what anoys me most about the lack of AI for Subs & torpedos, it bacially means that Silent Hunter is missing and entire chapter in WW2 maritime history.

[Lanzfeld]

It is very much possible to have AI wolfpacks.

My god. We sent a man to the moon in the 60's with the aid of an onboard computer that had less capability then the watch I am wearing!

I fly a large jet designed in the 70's that can autoland itself!

They can do AI wolfpacks!!!

[JScones]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Milkcows proved modable in SH3...

I would like to see milkcows/supply ships integrated into SH5. SH3 modders created a nice workaround, but having a milkcow docking be treated like the end of a patrol (with all damage fixed, patrol count incremented, NULL patrol grid reset etc) is a bit distracting.

Surely SH5 can implement another unit type with appropriate docking behaviours.

[Hitman]

Wah?

The largest number of U-boats that attacked a convoy was 51 boats (some sources say 41) from four wolfpacks against ONS-5 in April 1943. Not a regular occurance mind you.

The 42-ship convoy was escorted by a destroyer, frigate and 4 corvettes.

The end result: 12 ships sunk...7 U-boats lost.

Hardly what I'd call the wreaking of havoc.

As non-native english speaker I used incorrectly the expression "breaking havoc", but aside from that the wolfpack tactics were hugely important in that by keeping the convoy escort busy they opened gaps on it. In the early stages of the war, even a more or less simultaneous attack by just three or four boats was enough to allow for some chaos in the escrot screen. Schepke, Kretschmer, Prien, participated in some of those actions, sometimes benefitting (And sometimes getting in trouble because of that) from the busy convoy escorts.

The example you chose, ONS-5, is not a casual one. There were certainly more U-Boats than ever deployed against it, (though not all of them simultaneously) but what made the difference was the convoy running into a fog bank, which reversed the situation due to escorts having radar. Oh, and IIRC, ONS-5 only had its ordinary escort for some days, but later an additional support group was drawn from another convoy and increased the escort. BTW, ONS-5 was also the convoy that started the Black May.

Methinks some people may need to read up on actual Wolfpacks. http://uboat.net/ops/wolfpacks/ gives a nice summary of most (it's incomplete) of the wolfpacks including size and ships sunk. Some romanticists may find the stats surprising...

Like for example Michael Gannon's well documented "Black May", about how the allies defeated the U-Boats? And specifically dedicating several chapters to ONS-5?

I had readed it long before you ever heard about subsim.com or modding SH3

[TigerOmega]

I played multiplayer in SH3. It was a lot of fun and kinda simple to create the scenario you wanted. If SHV doesn't have AI wolf packs it will be multiplayer for me.
I just hope they include the mission editor.

[longam]

Even in Falcon 4 you flew in formation with 3 other AI. They followed your lead, flew at your alt, and would span out or close up by your command. They could even change formation and would not attack until given the order to do so.

I see this as a bases on a basic wolf pack AI and is very possible to do.

[thruster]

ok, i know nothing about programing but i just dont see how this could be a drama?
in reality one boat rarely ever saw another, so dont bother with that. i see it as manipulating random events.
-you radio a sighted convoy. random radio traffic appears. sometime later a random attack hits a section of the convoy [a ship blows up, and escorts DC that section of water for awhile]. the more you risk radioing in contacts potentially more random hits occur.
-or you get an initial contact report, acknowledge that you are going. other random callsigns do same. you then get random hits on the convoy from different areas and scattering the escorts.
-you could even have the escorts randomly generate a DC attack on a section of convoy perimeter that you dont even know about. it could attract you to the convoy in the first place, as well as having escorts dispersed when you get there.

how hard is that????

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by thruster

ok, i know nothing about programing but i just dont see how this could be a drama?
in reality one boat rarely ever saw another, so dont bother with that. i see it as manipulating random events.
-you radio a sighted convoy. random radio traffic appears. sometime later a random attack hits a section of the convoy [a ship blows up, and escorts DC that section of water for awhile]. the more you risk radioing in contacts potentially more random hits occur.
-or you get an initial contact report, acknowledge that you are going. other random callsigns do same. you then get random hits on the convoy from different areas and scattering the escorts.
-you could even have the escorts randomly generate a DC attack on a section of convoy perimeter that you dont even know about. it could attract you to the convoy in the first place, as well as having escorts dispersed when you get there.

how hard is that????

Well to be totally honest, it sounds like a recipe for bugs, Imho - to give actual AI to submarines instead would:

1) Acheive the same Wolfpack effect for virtually the same amount of work. (Your proposal is not all far off from being an AI sub with no 3d model attached.)

2) Adds the realsim of the Subs physicial existance - rather than being virtual.

3) Allow for encounters, interception & engament with Enermy subs, even if the devs dont include any models for Non-German sub types - we can!

4) it would help pave the way for a Destoyer command addon or mod.

5) Allow the player to see friendly subs traveling to and from port

6) Allow for properly behaved Milchows (resupply Uboats)

7) Allows the player to embark on side missions where they could Aid another U-boat in distress.

8) Allow for the construction of an Ai topedo controller that can also be attached to surface vessles like the 'impotent' PT boat.


So there you have it- Sub Ai is not just for 'Wolf packs' it also fixes a great number of shotcomings that plagued in Sh3 & 4 -that listed above is already adds like 10% more game than the pervious. installment.