AI Wolfpacks? - Page 4

SubV · 08-24-09, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TH0R

I don't follow...?

Every existing A.I. lacks human ability to find best solution in complex environments with many variables.

Thus, making a good A.I. for wolfpacks is not possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Simple - prioritize rules by whatever presents the most danger at that point in time. In this case, the attacking DD.

Believe me, it's very hard to come even close to a working model of such priorities. Otherwise, we would have all kinds of computer controlled vehicles today (i.e. perfect car autopilots).

JU_88 · 08-24-09, 12:01 PM

Ok I'm really struggling to understand why some people think this is SO hard to achieve?

Is it because they are used to playing as the U-BOAT themselves - and therefore cant comprehend the AI managing to cope with the basics of this task?

Think back to the first ever flight sim, I wonder if the the initial suggestion to add 'AI controlled planes' was also dismissed and ridculed as "impossible / unreasonable"?

"Noooooo - its too complicated to code that"
The funny thing is that SH5 is far from being the 'first subsim', and AI subs have be done many times before!
(*bangs head on desk*)

Crimguy · 08-24-09, 12:15 PM

I don't see what's so wrong with a few simplifications and "cheats" to allow for wolfpacks. Some things I believe are quite possible and probably fairly easy to implement:

1) Spotting by AI sub is easy.
2) Following a TF by a sub is also easy. A cheat could allow for a simple routine to have the boat stay a certain distance away, with a small chance of discovery for randomness.
3) Setting up the wolfpack for an attack is complicated, but the AI likely could set up the other subs based on your position. Better yet would be a radio or signal lamp communication to allow you to coordinate with them, either telling them where to go (to port or starboard of TF), or being told.
4) The attack by the uboats could be simplified without anyone knowing better, based on experience of AI captain, dud rate, and weather, for example.
5) Hunting/Evasion could be completely simplified. Some basic detection routines that have the SC's and DD's occupied on another target would suffice. The details of how the AI uboats live or die is inconsequential. What matters is how their actions effect your action.

Just my 2 kopeks.

JU_88 · 08-24-09, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubV

Every existing A.I. lacks human ability to find best solution in complex environments with many variables.

Thus, making a good A.I. for wolfpacks is not possible.

Believe me, it's very hard to come even close to a working model of such priorities. Otherwise, we would have all kinds of computer controlled vehicles today (i.e. perfect car autopilots).

What!?
Since when did we ask the Romanian Devs to build us a REAL LIFE computer controlled Uboat?

W'ere asking for an AI controlled 3d submarine model in a (ahem!) submarine game
You know? Like the the way they have;
AI cars in Driving games....
AI planes in flight sims....
AI Humans in First person shooters....

For the record we do have 'near perfect' computer controlled cars, boats, trains and planes -real ones

(do a google search on 'Global Hawk technology')

Anyway, it doesn't matter, since game engines & enviroments are nowhere near as complex as the real world.
(not yet anyway)

AVGWarhawk · 08-24-09, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JU_88

What!?
Since when did we ask the Romanian Devs to build us a REAL LIFE computer controlled Uboat?

W'ere asking for an AI controlled 3d submarine model in a (ahem!) submarine game
You know? Like the the way they have;
AI cars in Driving games....
AI planes in flight sims....
AI Humans in First person shooters....

Am I making any sense at all?

For the record we do have computer controlled cars, boats, trains and planes -real ones

but its really not the same thing at all....

Yes, there are a lot of computer controlled vehicles. Even nano-machines. Anyway, yes, computer AI simular to AI cars, planes, humans would work great in the is respect. There is no reason the AI could not be programmed to make approaches and attack. Hell, IL2 your AI wingman could be directed to do things. So could the subs in this game.

Sailor Steve · 08-24-09, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubV

Ok. Now imagine a real combat when many things occur simultaneously.

"If one DD is within 5000 meters and second at 3500, beginning a search pattern. Enemy air units were spotted, all the merchant ships are performing evade manouevers. Third DD is just above, initiating a depth charge attack".

Then?

Then you have a chance that the AI might make a mistake, just as you or I might. One of our subs was lost? Ouch!

I like the idea of the escort being off chasing another boat, giving me a chance to slip in and do some damage; but I also like the idea of the opposite occuring - having them chasing me away and having my soundman report explosions in the distance, indicating an opportunity taken by my comrades.

Jimbuna · 08-24-09, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Then you have a chance that the AI might make a mistake, just as you or I might. One of our subs was lost? Ouch!

I like the idea of the escort being off chasing another boat, giving me a chance to slip in and do some damage; but I also like the idea of the opposite occuring - having them chasing me away and having my soundman report explosions in the distance, indicating an opportunity taken by my comrades.

Precisely....and very achievable nowadays. All that is needed is for the devs to have the time and the permission/remit

AVGWarhawk · 08-24-09, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Then you have a chance that the AI might make a mistake, just as you or I might. One of our subs was lost? Ouch!

I like the idea of the escort being off chasing another boat, giving me a chance to slip in and do some damage; but I also like the idea of the opposite occuring - having them chasing me away and having my soundman report explosions in the distance, indicating an opportunity taken by my comrades.

Hey...neat idea Steve!

Arclight · 08-24-09, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Then you have a chance that the AI might make a mistake, just as you or I might. One of our subs was lost? Ouch!

I like the idea of the escort being off chasing another boat, giving me a chance to slip in and do some damage; but I also like the idea of the opposite occuring - having them chasing me away and having my soundman report explosions in the distance, indicating an opportunity taken by my comrades.

An opportunity to get blown out of the water?

Seriously though, I really hope wolfpacks will make it in. I also really hope that if they do, not every attack degenerates into an uncoordinated mess, with more subs being lost than merchants sunk.

If anyone can pull it off, its the guys at Ubi RO.

Highbury · 08-24-09, 06:35 PM

Well hopefully SHV will have some of the larger convoys, 60 ships or so. That alone makes the Wolfpack prospect (IF we get it) far more exciting.

That would provide realistic sized gaps in the screen for the U-Boats to slip through. As it is now in SH3 and 4, you can't do a proper night surface attack as the men who did them in the war describe. The convoys are too small and too bunched up. Kretschmer talked of going between the rows of ships firing his deck gun at night. Try that in any SH game now

That would make coding the AI subs behavior a bit easier as well.

difool2 · 08-24-09, 07:43 PM

I've played DW (and, before it, SC and 688i), but not as much as some other people. What were the AI issues in those games? The only thing I can think of is that you could typically detect them before they you, but that may reflect the relative quality of the 688 sensors vs. say the Akula's.

dize · 08-25-09, 12:27 AM

idd the biggest deal/no deal thingie for me.
i realy like the sh4 graphics already. the increase in vision distance with one of the sh4 patches was also quite important.
bigger convoys, with like 30-40 merchants, plus the appropriate escort strength.
a better flying routine for airplanes, with the real low level attacks etc.
sub/bdu ai. any convoy scenario from 41 onwards without this, would be just poop. swamping the convoy screen, was the only real chance of breaking the defence. i stopped playing sh3/gwx because of this.

Kaleun_Endrass · 08-25-09, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dize

swamping the convoy screen, was the only real chance of breaking the defence. i stopped playing sh3/gwx because of this.

Do you mean you stopped playing sh3/gwx because you had to sink the escorts to get to the merchants or do you mean reality?

dize · 08-25-09, 06:23 AM

after the allies got their act together with their convoy escort system somewhere in early 42, it was highly unlikely for a single uboat, to just approach random convoy, overtake it, go to xxxm, and then go to peri depth and shoot some merchants, from inside escort screen.
combating a convoy from mid 42 onwards, was a rather elaborate affair, which required intense teamwork from many elements. search planes, b dienst, other uboats and the bdu. nothing of this is sufficiently represented in sh3, gwx or not. you are alone out there. its just doesnt feel anywhere the realy thing.

Hitman · 08-25-09, 06:40 AM

The lack of wolfpacks is the biggest problem so far in the SH series. I have therefore always played careers only in those areas/times when wolfpacks were historically not available (Mediterranean, long range & coastal U-boats and late war), because as dize rightfully said, the historic attacks against convoys from 1941-1943 were in fact huge battles with lots of units involved. U-Boats converged from al around to the convoy reported and engaged it simultaneously, to wreak havoc in the escort screen. The tactic was developed by Dönitz as a response to the convoy system: "Concentrate defences require a concentrated attack". A single U-Boat against a full, well escorted convoy is ridiculous and doesn't stand many chances of doing real harm. Also, your surviving probabilities increase when the escorts must leave you and run to the convoy to keep protecting it. This is the reason why the hunter killers appeared late in the war,m when the allies had enough resources: To be able to chase the U-Boat until death and/or suffocation without having to protect any convoy at all.

08-24-09, 12:01 PM	#47
JU_88 Silent Hunter Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: UK Posts: 3,825 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	Ok I'm really struggling to understand why some people think this is SO hard to achieve? Is it because they are used to playing as the U-BOAT themselves - and therefore cant comprehend the AI managing to cope with the basics of this task? Think back to the first ever flight sim, I wonder if the the initial suggestion to add 'AI controlled planes' was also dismissed and ridculed as "impossible / unreasonable"? "Noooooo - its too complicated to code that" The funny thing is that SH5 is far from being the 'first subsim', and AI subs have be done many times before! (bangs head on desk) Last edited by JU_88; 08-24-09 at 12:15 PM.

08-24-09, 12:15 PM	#48
Crimguy A-ganger Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: In a trench outside Vicksburg Posts: 73 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	I don't see what's so wrong with a few simplifications and "cheats" to allow for wolfpacks. Some things I believe are quite possible and probably fairly easy to implement: 1) Spotting by AI sub is easy. 2) Following a TF by a sub is also easy. A cheat could allow for a simple routine to have the boat stay a certain distance away, with a small chance of discovery for randomness. 3) Setting up the wolfpack for an attack is complicated, but the AI likely could set up the other subs based on your position. Better yet would be a radio or signal lamp communication to allow you to coordinate with them, either telling them where to go (to port or starboard of TF), or being told. 4) The attack by the uboats could be simplified without anyone knowing better, based on experience of AI captain, dud rate, and weather, for example. 5) Hunting/Evasion could be completely simplified. Some basic detection routines that have the SC's and DD's occupied on another target would suffice. The details of how the AI uboats live or die is inconsequential. What matters is how their actions effect your action. Just my 2 kopeks. __________________ -=-=-=-=-=- Crimguy

08-25-09, 12:27 AM	#57
dize Machinist's Mate Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: hamburg Posts: 122 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	idd the biggest deal/no deal thingie for me. i realy like the sh4 graphics already. the increase in vision distance with one of the sh4 patches was also quite important. bigger convoys, with like 30-40 merchants, plus the appropriate escort strength. a better flying routine for airplanes, with the real low level attacks etc. sub/bdu ai. any convoy scenario from 41 onwards without this, would be just poop. swamping the convoy screen, was the only real chance of breaking the defence. i stopped playing sh3/gwx because of this. __________________

08-25-09, 06:23 AM	#59
dize Machinist's Mate Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: hamburg Posts: 122 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	after the allies got their act together with their convoy escort system somewhere in early 42, it was highly unlikely for a single uboat, to just approach random convoy, overtake it, go to xxxm, and then go to peri depth and shoot some merchants, from inside escort screen. combating a convoy from mid 42 onwards, was a rather elaborate affair, which required intense teamwork from many elements. search planes, b dienst, other uboats and the bdu. nothing of this is sufficiently represented in sh3, gwx or not. you are alone out there. its just doesnt feel anywhere the realy thing. __________________

08-25-09, 06:40 AM	#60
Hitman Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 6,111 Downloads: 109 Uploads: 2	The lack of wolfpacks is the biggest problem so far in the SH series. I have therefore always played careers only in those areas/times when wolfpacks were historically not available (Mediterranean, long range & coastal U-boats and late war), because as dize rightfully said, the historic attacks against convoys from 1941-1943 were in fact huge battles with lots of units involved. U-Boats converged from al around to the convoy reported and engaged it simultaneously, to wreak havoc in the escort screen. The tactic was developed by Dönitz as a response to the convoy system: "Concentrate defences require a concentrated attack". A single U-Boat against a full, well escorted convoy is ridiculous and doesn't stand many chances of doing real harm. Also, your surviving probabilities increase when the escorts must leave you and run to the convoy to keep protecting it. This is the reason why the hunter killers appeared late in the war,m when the allies had enough resources: To be able to chase the U-Boat until death and/or suffocation without having to protect any convoy at all. __________________ One day I will return to sea ...

08-24-09, 06:35 PM	#55
Highbury The Old Man Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: 51.557, -0.102 Posts: 1,311 Downloads: 177 Uploads: 0	Well hopefully SHV will have some of the larger convoys, 60 ships or so. That alone makes the Wolfpack prospect (IF we get it) far more exciting. That would provide realistic sized gaps in the screen for the U-Boats to slip through. As it is now in SH3 and 4, you can't do a proper night surface attack as the men who did them in the war describe. The convoys are too small and too bunched up. Kretschmer talked of going between the rows of ships firing his deck gun at night. Try that in any SH game now That would make coding the AI subs behavior a bit easier as well.

08-24-09, 07:43 PM	#56
difool2 Commander Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 459 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	I've played DW (and, before it, SC and 688i), but not as much as some other people. What were the AI issues in those games? The only thing I can think of is that you could typically detect them before they you, but that may reflect the relative quality of the 688 sensors vs. say the Akula's.