Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Having nazi symbology in one's signature is not what I would consider "historical context". Its more like an endorsement of the ideology than anything else. In this specific case censorship or a well defined forum rule that establishes that one cannot use nazi symbols in one's signature should be welcomed and enforced.

[Rockin Robbins]

And again, my position, which I have now clearly stated four times is being willfully distorted by those who can't argue against my position so they argue against something else.

My position: already stated. The swastika, when used in an environmental context, inside the game, is a reflection of historical fact and is used appropriately there. Inside the game, the swastika only reflects reality and makes no statement of your personal beliefs.

However, the use of Nazi symbols in your signature pic, or the use of Nazi related terminology such as "JewDogKiller" for a name on Subsim is your identity to others on Subsim, is wrapping yourself in that ideology and endorsing it. These are equivalent actions. If you do this, you should not be surprised if I call you out as being grossly inappropriate, and I will do so every time I see it. You should not be surprised if others call you a Nazi. For my part, I shall confine myself to saying you have very bad judgment. I do this, not for myself, because I have a very thick skin and don't care how stupid some may appear, but in the name of others, who have convinced me against my normal inclination for restraint. That is detailed above.

I don't call for any new Subsim rules. We have enough, thank you, and any rule made is likely to be worse than the disease. Over at Ubi forums, for instance, they ban ALL Nazi symbolism, even where historically justified. All I want is for people to think about what their signature, their Subsim identity, is saying about their beliefs and attitudes toward others.

If you really idolize the Third Reich and want to kill all the Jews, Catholics, Gypsies, southern Europeans, Jehovah's Witnesses, blacks and assorted others on Earth, by all means, adopt the Nazi flag as a siggy pic, take on a disgusting name and let us all know who you are. That's much less dangerous than remaining undetected. And we can all have a good laugh at you just before we put you on ignore.

But throwing the baby out with the bathwater is human tradition. Just look at all the people around here pretending that I am saying that no display of Nazi regalia is appropriate. Of course, their argument (unspoken) is that if it's proper in the game, it is proper to have the smiling officer, Fuhrer's medals, uniformed wife, all under the flowing Nazi flag as your signature too. After all, nothing means anything, it's all a game, if you have a problem (perform some kind of impossible physical activity with yourself). Of course, a logical extension of that line of thinking is that "JewDogKiller" would be a perfectly acceptable name, as nobody is actually trying to kill Jews here, don't be silly, the war was over 60 years ago, blah, blah, blah.

The reason my views are being distorted and the reason everyone is arguing against another position entirely is that they are unable to effectively disagree with my REAL position. It's called the straw man fallacy in debate, and it is nothing but an endorsement of my real position. After all, you will choose every time not to disagree with a position you agree with.

Wow! Everyone has demonstrated agreement with me then. That's good.

[mookiemookie]

I don't see that having a kriegsmarine poster in your signature automatically makes you a Nazi. SH3 is a game about the U-boat arm of the kriegsmarine, and thus a kriegsmarine poster is in the spirit of what the game is about. If it were one of the Nazi propaganda posters about the "Jewish threat" or some such nonsense in someones signature, then I would be more inclined to agree. However, a U-boat fan with a Kriegsmarine recruiting poster in his signature is not a whole lot different than a fleet boat fan with a U.S. Navy submarine service recruiting poster in his sig.

[tater]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Having nazi symbology in one's signature is not what I would consider "historical context". Its more like an endorsement of the ideology than anything else. In this specific case censorship or a well defined forum rule that establishes that one cannot use nazi symbols in one's signature should be welcomed and enforced.

This is true.

I suppose one could argue that an unaltered image of a boat with a flag on it, or a skipper with a nazi symbol around his neck, etc would be within some sort of historical context, but ADDING the symbols in photoshop to pictures that lack them... shows some political pathology, IMHO.

Not someone I'd invite to a dinner party, likely (and you should see the various political parties go at it over my dinner table sometimes ). Course that sort might not leave mom's basement often anyway, even if invited out.

tater

PS—I'd say the same about Soviet or other communist imagery, BTW, they bumped off rather a lot of people as well. That includes those morons wearing Che shirts.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I suppose you would if members of subsim started putting porn images in their signatures. Somehow I don't think so. If you're because of free speech, well having free speech doesn't give you a free pass to say whatever you like. Try to write something that defamates a specific person and see how quickly you'll be sued, and free speech argument thrown by the side.

[Rockin Robbins]

I don't see that having a kriegsmarine poster in your signature automatically makes you a Nazi.

Yup, I agree with that. Again, you are arguing against something that is not my postiion. A kriegsmarine poster doesn't have to contain and most often did not contain any Nazi overtones. The kriegsmarine looked upon itself as a professional occupation above politics.

Granted, politics did enter into their activities, sometimes by an enthusiastic Nazi demonstrating command abilities and being promoted, sometimes by imposition of an officer responsible for enforcing party loyalty. But I have no problem with the use of a kriegsmarine recruiting poster that doesn't have explicit and prominent Nazi overtones. Yes, it's possible that somewhere on the poster there might be a swastika or German flag. But it would not be the predominate message of the the poster, and so would fall under the protection of being historically appropriate.



THIS, however has the Nazi flag as its dominating element. It flies over the entire top of the poster and envelops the man. This symbolism is willful and intended to say that this man is devoted to and places himself voluntarily (I'm assuming this is supposed to be a recruiting poster) and "honorably" under glorious Nazi rule. "Join the Navy and be an elite part of the Fuhrer's glorious Reich." Here I'd say the word "Kriegsmarine" doesn't get the poster off the hook. It is like putting "Peace on Earth" on the bottom a "Kill the Jews" poster.

And it is not the same as most of the real Kriegsmarine posters that I have seen. They tend not to be grossly political in this manner.

[Mr.O'Bannon]

I would argue that any nations recruitment poster would contain a flag of that nation. The flags are put in the poster to appeal to the patriotic young men looking for adventure. And yes, most Germans at that time were patriotic. Germany has always had a strong heritage of arms. It is hard to get past the knee-jerk reaction that has been ingrained in all of us by years upon years of anti-German sentiment. Once you learn more about the worlds history, you start to see that maybe the problem is not the symbols but the prevalence of narcissists who are constantly trying to build a socialist utopia at all our expense. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao are all of the same mold. The real enemy is not the dead symbols of the past but the progressive, utopia aspiring ideaology that installs these despots. Who knows? The next evil symbol may already be here and we cannot see it yet, just like the Germans of the 1930's.

[AVGWarhawk]

I would argue that any nations recruitment poster would contain a flag of that nation.

Google images for WW2 recruitment posters. You will find many more without the flag then with the flag. Both sides.

[Mr.O'Bannon]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Google images for WW2 recruitment posters. You will find many more without the flag then with the flag. Both sides.

I don't disagree.

[Rockin Robbins]

I would argue that any nations recruitment poster would contain a flag of that nation.

Mr. O'Bannon, you take a most unfortunately fallacious position there:




Nazi flags are more common in German posters than American flags on American recruitment posters, but it IS possible to find some without the Nazi banner their most prominent feature.




OK, that's enough. Now, what part of the rest of your post should anyone give credence to? Logic does not work on reality. It is or is not. In this case it is not necessary for a flag to be in a recruitment poster. Frankly, I find myself in agreement with the remainder of the post. It's just a shame you began so badly.

Also note that although the Luftwaffe poster has small swastikas on it, they are not the focus of the poster ,proclaiming "OUR Luftwaffe." Joining the Luftwaffe is defending home and hearth: your family, is what this poster is saying. In that context I personally don't have a problem with the swastikas there. Others might.

Also you ignore the fact that the Nazi emblem and flag are not the national flag and emblem of Germany, but a party symbol and flag. The Nazi flag is not the same as the Japanese flag or American flag or British flag. Yes, the Nazis sought to establish an equivalency there, but repeating a lie often enough does not make it true.

Naziism was a disease. The nationality was afflicted by the disease but did not become the disease. They are now cured.

[Mr.O'Bannon]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Mr. O'Bannon, you take a most unfortunately fallacious position there:




Nazi flags are more common in German posters than American flags on American recruitment posters, but it IS possible to find some without the Nazi banner their most prominent feature.




OK, that's enough. Now, what part of the rest of your posts should anyone give credence to? Logic does not work on reality. It is or is not. In this case it is not necessary for a flag to be in a recruitment poster.

Also note that although the Luftwaffe poster has small swastikas on it, they are not the focus of the poster ,proclaiming "OUR Luftwaffe." Joining the Luftwaffe is defending home and hearth: your family, is what this poster is saying. In that context I personally don't have a problem with the swastikas there. Others might.

Also you ignore the fact that the Nazi emblem and flag are not the national flag and emblem of Germany, but a party symbol and flag. The Nazi flag is not the same as the Japanese flag or American flag or British flag. Yes, the Nazis sought to establish an equivalency there, but repeating a lie often enough does not make it true.

Naziism was a disease. The nationality was afflicted by the disease but did not become the disease. They are now cured.

The swastika was the flag of Germany for many years, that cannot be disputed. For those who grew up in the third reich, that was their flag and they used it during the thirties and half of the forties. I don't need you to give credence to anything I post, because you have already proved to be highly excitable and prone to inciting drama by this ridiculous thread and the derailment of the other. I posted my opinion, that there are bigger things to worry about then the old symbols of WWII. We are all men here and within the confines of a u-boat game , a realistic swastika does not make me piss myself. As an American who believes in common sense, lets leave the thought crime laws to the rest of the world.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Also you ignore the fact that the Nazi emblem and flag are not the national flag and emblem of Germany, but a party symbol and flag. The Nazi flag is not the same as the Japanese flag or American flag or British flag. Yes, the Nazis sought to establish an equivalency there, but repeating a lie often enough does not make it true.

It may not have been the 'official' national flag, but was pretty much used as such. The only instance I can remember where I've seen the 'official' national flag is the small shield on wehrmacht helmets. Almost all other flags I've seen on photos etc. are nazi flags.

I also note of the 7 german propaganda posters without nazi flags you show 3 are foreign recruiting posters (Dutch, Italian and Norwegian). It makes some sense that there are no nazi flags on those as the NSDAP wasn't active in these countries.

[tater]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Having nazi symbology in one's signature is not what I would consider "historical context". Its more like an endorsement of the ideology than anything else. In this specific case censorship or a well defined forum rule that establishes that one cannot use nazi symbols in one's signature should be welcomed and enforced.

I should add that I don't have a problem with people making whatever image is OK with Neal. "Free Speech" does not apply, this is a private setting.

In fact, it is a good indicator of who we are talking to. Someone who goes to the trouble of making a sig like that is not gonna be on my short list of people to hang out with (or probably the long one, either). Heck, I've never gone to the trouble of making ANY sig on any forum since there have been forums. Or a sig on usenet groups, back in the day Heck, the assigned avatar here is the only forum avatar I have, I don't do that, either.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Mr.O'Bannon

The swastika was the flag of Germany for many years, that cannot be disputed. For those who grew up in the third reich, that was their flag and they used it during the thirties and half of the forties. I don't need you to give credence to anything I post, because you have already proved to be highly excitable and prone to inciting drama by this ridiculous thread and the derailment of the other. I posted my opinion, that there are bigger things to worry about then the old symbols of WWII. We are all men here and within the confines of a u-boat game , a realistic swastika does not make me piss myself. As an American who believes in common sense, lets leave the thought crime laws to the rest of the world.

Are there bigger things to worry about for the family of Stephen Tyrone Johns? Perhaps you could travel to their home and explain how there are bigger things to worry about than "the old symbols of WWII." If you survive, you'll leave with a different opinion. These old impotent symbols continue to motivate a number of dangerous and vicious groups of people today. Adopting symbols of that dangerous delusion as personal identification implies agreement with these murderers of the present, as well as the Nazi thugs of the past.

I understand that you don't have a problem with that. I understand that rather than persuade people the correctness of your view, you believe substitution of personally disparaging remarks highlighted above will work as well. I understand that you are too enlightened to take your own side of this discussion. Your only alternative then is to personally attack me. That is tantamount to surrender. Thank you.

If the thread were ridiculous you would not be so actively participating in it.

And again, you are joining the throng, pretending that I am against ANY display of the Nazi flag or swastika. Even in my examples of what I think is permissible, I include depictions of the swastika. But, unable to find disagreement with my real position, you resort to attacking the old abused straw man, and then to personally attacking me. But I am the one who is "highly excitable and prone to inciting drama," hmmmmmmmm? Most entertaining! Thanks for contributing.

[Mr.O'Bannon]

I am not as outspoken as you, but in reading this board for awhile I haven't seen anything that causes me to think there may be a problem. If you are referring to the slain guard at the holocaust museum, I don't know how that ties in to the use of historical flags in a WWII game. There are sociopaths of every variety out there, and being sociopathic causes them to do evil to others, not using historical flags in a u-boat game. Excuse my bluntness, I am not disparaging you, but I just don't feel alarmed as you do.