instant death now you can see what happens

[Peto]

Originally Posted by TriskettheKid

I don't see anything unrealistic with, say, trying to dive to 600ft in a Balao to try and escape a DC run. I've seen quite a few stories on here about subs that did that at times.

I've talked to quite a few sub vets and I do know one thing: None of them would want to be on your boat . Test depth for a Balao was 400 feet. They'd go 500 when things were extremely difficult--as in being held under for hours and getting desperate.

Just because a subs theoretical crush depth is X feet doesn't mean the crew wants to go to X-10.

[epower]

Been reading Adm Eugene Fluckey's "Thunder below" in which he chronicles his 5 war patrols as commander of USS Barb. Rated for 312 feet max depth, Fluckey took her much deeper as a matter of course. The following excerpt from page 306 describes an event during the June 1945 refit:

"Our underway period with a much-decorated training officer, Creed Burlingame, was perfection: eight fish fired - eight hits... Creed even thought we were a thick-skinned submarine tested to 435 feet. I assured him that although the Barb was thin skinned, we had been that deep before, but my criterion for going no deeper was the forward battery deck. Our maximum depth was when it started to rumple or flex, not 312 feet"

No way of getting (or mimicing) such an indicator in game is there?

[-Pv-]

You have a "rated" crush depth indicator. Some or most individual subs will go deeper. You just don't know how deep or how long. On my way out of port I always do one or more crash dives to see how the crew and boat responds before I get into battle. I use that to judge how far I will go when I get desparate. If I rack it up, I'm only an hour game time into the patrol and can easily start over. I haven't had to though. I dive to what I think is a reasonable escape depth for the amount of risk I usually take and if the sub makes it there without damage for a little while, I go back up and continue the patrol.

It's easy to equate depth with safety. A good game balances risk with rewards.
-Pv-

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I can't deal with another patch. If there is, i swear i will remove this site from my bookmarks, and run away from the computer screaming like a lunatic.

Please remember to make a video, so we can enjoy the show.




Hey, I'd do the same for you.:rotfl:

[Steeltrap]

Originally Posted by Peto

I've talked to quite a few sub vets and I do know one thing: None of them would want to be on your boat . Test depth for a Balao was 400 feet. They'd go 500 when things were extremely difficult--as in being held under for hours and getting desperate.

Just because a subs theoretical crush depth is X feet doesn't mean the crew wants to go to X-10.

Was Tang a Balao class?

From Clear the Bridge (pages 39-40):

In time of peace I might have accepted the stipulated test depth of 438ft, but....knowing that extra depth could mean survival, establishing a maximum depth closer to the hull's true capability seemed in order. The dive was slow and deliberate, with battle telephones manned in each compartment, and with officers and senior petty officers stationed throughout the submarine. At any sign of trouble, Tang would start up again.....We passed our test depth, but at 450ft a guage line came apart and one of the hoses to our Bendix speed log ruptured.....At 525ft, the rollers that held the sound heads in the lowered position against sea pressure cracked. The heads housed themselves with a swoosh.....at 580ft the flanged joints in the vent risers took off like road sprinklers....rather drenching the area but with little volume.....the very fact that 600ft was the last figure on the depth guage did cause some uneasiness, like coming to the edge of the ocean.....Tang's actual test depth was 612ft. (note that I have edited this to cut out the descriptions of what they did to correct each problem....the actual process was spread over a few days with them correcting things back at the base....this version makes it look like they just kept diving like mad, but they were far more careful than that!)

So there is a detailed, unequivocal account of what it was like to push depth until things "happened", by the man himself in charge of doing it. Incidentally, this confidence in their true depth capability was used regularly, with diving to 500ft during evasion not even something to be regarded as unusual.

Peter Cremer in U-333: the Story of a U-Boat Ace, pointed out that VIIC boats regularly went to 200m (or about 670ft), and some went well beyond that to the point that their frame members began to crack!!

Either way, the 'sorry, everything has failed at once' is not, based on available testimony, a realistic situation. It stands to reason that the 'weakest links' would give way as the initial warning, as per O'Kane's description.

As an aside, Peto, I'd be very interested to hear from vets what their opinion of O'Kane was.....

Cheers all!

[TheSatyr]

I always use the flickering lights in the conning tower as a way to judge how deep it's safe to dive.On the Tambor I have now the lights start flickering just past 360 ft. So I don't go any deeper than 355 ft. I might be able to get away with going below 360 for a little while,but i don't want to chance it.

[Peto]

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

Was Tang a Balao class?

From Clear the Bridge (pages 39-40):

In time of peace I might have accepted the stipulated test depth of 438ft, but....knowing that extra depth could mean survival, establishing a maximum depth closer to the hull's true capability seemed in order. The dive was slow and deliberate, with battle telephones manned in each compartment, and with officers and senior petty officers stationed throughout the submarine. At any sign of trouble, Tang would start up again.....We passed our test depth, but at 450ft a guage line came apart and one of the hoses to our Bendix speed log ruptured.....At 525ft, the rollers that held the sound heads in the lowered position against sea pressure cracked. The heads housed themselves with a swoosh.....at 580ft the flanged joints in the vent risers took off like road sprinklers....rather drenching the area but with little volume.....the very fact that 600ft was the last figure on the depth guage did cause some uneasiness, like coming to the edge of the ocean.....Tang's actual test depth was 612ft. (note that I have edited this to cut out the descriptions of what they did to correct each problem....the actual process was spread over a few days with them correcting things back at the base....this version makes it look like they just kept diving like mad, but they were far more careful than that!)

So there is a detailed, unequivocal account of what it was like to push depth until things "happened", by the man himself in charge of doing it. Incidentally, this confidence in their true depth capability was used regularly, with diving to 500ft during evasion not even something to be regarded as unusual.

Peter Cremer in U-333: the Story of a U-Boat Ace, pointed out that VIIC boats regularly went to 200m (or about 670ft), and some went well beyond that to the point that their frame members began to crack!!

Either way, the 'sorry, everything has failed at once' is not, based on available testimony, a realistic situation. It stands to reason that the 'weakest links' would give way as the initial warning, as per O'Kane's description.

As an aside, Peto, I'd be very interested to hear from vets what their opinion of O'Kane was.....

Cheers all!

Hey Steeltrap! I love your quotes! Those are some of my favorites--especially where Cremer talks about pushing it until frame members begin to crack .

Yes, the Tang was a Balao Class. And it survived a 700 foot dive (as you probably know from the book). As far as what most vets I've talked to thought of Ace skippers like O'Kane, Morton, Dealey et al--most of them say those guys were crazy (reflected by how many were killed). They liked what they were doing whereas most guys just wanted to get home alive.

I had lunch with a guy who was on the Barb when Fluckey took it into that shallow harbor. He said it was surreal because it was just too nuts to do. He was on the bridge for some of it. While telling me about it, he grabbed all the salt and pepper shakers from surrounding tables to lay out what he remembered. After a little while a waitress came over and asked if she could have a couple back .

I've been lucky with all the vets I've met that were willing to talk to me. Some were even excited to talk. But I wasn't smart enough to have a tape player with me . I very much regret that.

Cheers!

Peto

[DeepIron]

Not to take this OT but Barb was one of my favorite subs from the war as well. Those guys did incredible things, like being the first submarine to fire rockets at land targets. Fluckeys book is certainly a classic...

On a sad note, he passed away on June 28th of this year.

[Peto]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

Not to take this OT but Barb was one of my favorite subs from the war as well. Those guys did incredible things, like being the first submarine to fire rockets at land targets. Fluckeys book is certainly a classic...

On a sad note, he passed away on June 28th of this year.

I have an autographed copy of his book.

[DeepIron]

I have an autographed copy of his book.

Outstanding! I would have liked to meet him.

[Steeltrap]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

Not to take this OT but Barb was one of my favorite subs from the war as well. Those guys did incredible things, like being the first submarine to fire rockets at land targets. Fluckeys book is certainly a classic...

On a sad note, he passed away on June 28th of this year.

To me, the really sad part is all those who didn't have the chance to live until now on account of the stupidities of war.....

Peto, glad you enjoy the quotes! I've forned the view from reading about some of the aces that they had a few things in common - single minded determination, complete absence of fear, exceptional understanding of the capabilities of their own boat and the enemy units and a willingness to take calculated risks. That last one is the real kicker. What might appear as sheer craziness can be viewed differently when you have a chance to understand the reasoning of the skipper. O'Kane's tactical explanations throughout Clear the Bridge are a real eye-opener: he seemed to have an uncanny grasp of what was possible, right to the limit....there are examples where he decided to call of attacks as he decided the risk level was too great, so it certainly wasn't recklessness.....although I found the part where he described firing at a target while going full astern as Tang had RUN AGROUND while submerged rather extraordinary !!! His comment on that is rather telling, too: "no submarine is ever truly aground until she's high and dry". That shows a real understanding of the absolute limit....probably why he - and some others - were far more successful than most.

Cheers

[Trickyfish]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

Not to take this OT but Barb was one of my favorite subs from the war as well. Those guys did incredible things, like being the first submarine to fire rockets at land targets. Fluckeys book is certainly a classic...

Which book is this? I'd like to find it and add it to my list of "books to read if I find the time".

Trickyfish
[edit] fixed typos

[TriskettheKid]

I wasn't talking about trying to be a heavy risk-taker (unlike my times in SHIII and GWX).

It's just that, with the way the game works when vanilla, you will be insta-killed when you go below TEST depth, not even anywhere near predicted CRUSH depth.

There is no reason why I should be insta-killed just diving to 500-600 feet when my new and undamaged sub (Balao) had a predicted crush depth around 900ft.

[cmdrk]

Originally Posted by Trickyfish

Which book is this? I'd like to find it and add it to my list of "books to read if I find the time".

Trickyfish
[edit] fixed typos

Thunder Below
I believe.

[DeepIron]

Here's an Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Thunder-Below-.../dp/0252066707

It's a fantastic account of the USS Barb under the command of Eugene Fluckey and well worth the read.