v1.3 Patch And Japanese ASW - Page 5

Bando · 07-26-07, 06:54 PM

Jace, what you're saying is running at surface, decks awash?

Jace11 · 07-26-07, 07:16 PM

Yup, try 8 meters on the dial (if using metric) or the equivelent in feet.

It definatley reduces their visual range.. it does help, but I just got spotted in one of my test missions, range was 2800m..

1.3 sets the minimum surface area (in sim.cfg) much less than mine, so it my be less effective. Plus DD's have radars that can pick up anything bigger than a door at long range, so it wont work against them, however an unescorted tanker or merchent would be a good target to experiment on, and the quicker crash dive (literally a few seconds..) is a bonus..

Ducimus · 07-26-07, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bando

Jace, what you're saying is running at surface, decks awash?

Hmmm. i dont remember if i put that in or not. Never thought about doing that because i tend to use radar depth, but still, decks aways means diesal power, not electric.

Fearless · 07-26-07, 08:11 PM

Actually, it would be great to have a command setting to place you at 'decks awash' stage. The other one would be a "Rigged for Dive" command. From what I've read so far was that Fleet type subs were at rigged for dive stage as soon as they departed so that minimal effort to submerge the sub was required.

scrag · 07-26-07, 10:39 PM

Not sure I am a big fan of 1.3. The Merchies seem to be uncanny in the ability to target me with there guns (Me at tnight DIW and waiting for them to draw near. Also the airpatrols are ridiculous (central pacific being attacked by a single engine A/C no Carrier or TF near. Weird. US Tactics developed where surfcae approach racing in and getting torps off at 2 - 3 k or closer then evading (on the surface and then repositioning to attack again after reloading. Now I spend more time at PD bow on waiting to have the target come run me over to shoot. Yet the DD's are seem to detect me more frequently while escorting merchants - as I have been able to successfully approach and sink carriers and one cruiser twice now and live to tell about it. I also had a single torp kill on a CA - weird she blew like a chinese fire works factory fire.

theluckyone17 · 07-26-07, 11:09 PM

Oh, I have to agree... the ASW is getting kinda tiring, with 1.3 installed, and TM1. Not boring, but tiring.

I was patrolling Sagami Bay, just outside Tokyo Bay. With the deep water, and early '42 convoys leaving Tokyo according to the SH4 map, I figured it'd be worth a try. I'd spend most nights on the surface, and most days under water at about 100 feet. If I picked up an warships, I went to 250 feet, 1 knot or less, and silent running.

This pair of warships (destroyer and a subchaser, I believe) passed me twice. On their third time around, I was unlucky enough to pass right underneath them. The destroyer never heard me... but the trailing subchaser did. Instantly, the active sonar started up, and it was a lost fight from there.

I'd twist and turn, trying to keep the pinging warship off my beam. Raising my speed helped get my bow around, but the other warship must've been listening off to the side, since I never managed to lose them. Just going deep (300'), with silent running, and less than a knot speed, failed to help. They continued to ping, and continued to drop depth charges. I'd continue to twist, alternate depth (250' to 300'), and finally just staying slow & quiet (again, 1 knot or less).

Only one near miss actually damaged me... enough to take out both 'scopes, deck & AA gun. Needless to say, the patrol was over at that point, and the warships continued making runs at me, regardless of anything I tried.

Wife finally came in, requesting a tuck-in, and I said the heck with it... quit the patrol without saving, posted this, and went to bed.

Excalibur Bane · 07-27-07, 12:42 AM

I noticed they said in the patch notes, that gunners get better if they continue firing at the same target (Not the exact quote but you get the idea) which is odd, because I've experienced almost exactly the opposite. I often surface at night to engage lone or pair merchants that are unescorted. I ran into a pair of tankers, both with fore and aft gun mountings and both of them raining shells on me and they hit me twice in about 10 mins of continous exchanges (I don't man the deckgun myself). On top of that, the merchants guns do little to no damage at all. Neither of the two shells that hit, left a mark on the hull or produced any damage. Not even a "We're under attack, sir!" per usual. Though I've noticed they will now train the AA guns on you when you get in range, I don't remember them doing that in 1.2

I sat and watched the gunners with the binoculars and they either shot about 200 feet in front of their own ship or fired at a 70 degree angle in the air. That's some pretty weird gunning for a merchant ship, they can't be THAT bad.

Tom C · 07-27-07, 10:07 AM

Quote:

...but still, decks aways means diesal power, not electric.

Not sure if I agree regarding decks awash, at a certain point depending on the sea state you're risking water down the main induction, and that's a good time to switch to battery. Also I don't know about the diesel exhausts, with decks awash they might be underwater, I imagine there could be backpressure problems?

Ducimus · 07-27-07, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom C

Quote:

...but still, decks aways means diesal power, not electric.

Not sure if I agree regarding decks awash, at a certain point depending on the sea state you're risking water down the main induction, and that's a good time to switch to battery. Also I don't know about the diesel exhausts, with decks awash they might be underwater, I imagine there could be backpressure problems?

IN real life, unfortunatly not all things mechanical are modeled in a computer game. *shrug* maybe ill leave it alone, i think radar depth is enough honestly.

Tom C · 07-31-07, 08:51 AM

Okay, I take back what I said about decks awash. I was reading a chapter in Galantin's "Take Her Deep!" last night where he mentions that, in a gale, they shut the main induction to keep the water out but could still run the diesels at slow speed with the draw of air through the bridge hatch.

John Channing · 07-31-07, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theluckyone17

Oh, I have to agree... the ASW is getting kinda tiring, with 1.3 installed, and TM1. Not boring, but tiring.

I was patrolling Sagami Bay, just outside Tokyo Bay. With the deep water, and early '42 convoys leaving Tokyo according to the SH4 map, I figured it'd be worth a try. I'd spend most nights on the surface, and most days under water at about 100 feet. If I picked up an warships, I went to 250 feet, 1 knot or less, and silent running.

This pair of warships (destroyer and a subchaser, I believe) passed me twice. On their third time around, I was unlucky enough to pass right underneath them. The destroyer never heard me... but the trailing subchaser did. Instantly, the active sonar started up, and it was a lost fight from there.

I'd twist and turn, trying to keep the pinging warship off my beam. Raising my speed helped get my bow around, but the other warship must've been listening off to the side, since I never managed to lose them. Just going deep (300'), with silent running, and less than a knot speed, failed to help. They continued to ping, and continued to drop depth charges. I'd continue to twist, alternate depth (250' to 300'), and finally just staying slow & quiet (again, 1 knot or less).

Only one near miss actually damaged me... enough to take out both 'scopes, deck & AA gun. Needless to say, the patrol was over at that point, and the warships continued making runs at me, regardless of anything I tried.

Wife finally came in, requesting a tuck-in, and I said the heck with it... quit the patrol without saving, posted this, and went to bed.

Interestingly your descrition sounds a lot like the last hours of the USS Wahoo as described by the Japanese reports and some IJN photos that have been located.

JCC

Capt. Shark Bait · 07-31-07, 07:57 PM

i don't think it needs to be changed. i spent almost 2hrs submerged and stationary at 330ft while a DD and a d@mm tincan subchaser dropped and fired depth charges all around, above and below me. before i ordered all stop i was at 250ft, well below the layer, and both seemed quite able to find me despite running silent at 1-3kts

Ducimus · 07-31-07, 08:40 PM

I just thought id mention the obvious that thermal layer implmentation in SH4 is not a magical boundry from which no sonar may pass. It is merely a reduction in signal strength, nothing more. Even when below a layer, there is still more variables at play which help the AI detect you.

Think of thermal layers in Sh4 as a pair of earmuffs or earplugs. Even while wearing them, you can still hear people talk. You may not make out every word, but you can usually understand whats being said none the less.

orangenee · 07-31-07, 09:44 PM

I have to say since 1.3 I'm getting a lot more DDs coming after me on their own well away from any convoys, I even had a Gunboat come after me as well before, this is in '41!! So they appear to be really switched on now!!

-Pv- · 07-31-07, 09:54 PM

"...Not sure if I agree regarding decks awash, at a certain point depending on the sea state you're risking water down the main induction, and that's a good time to switch to battery. Also I don't know about the diesel exhausts, with decks awash they might be underwater, I imagine there could be backpressure problems?..."

None of that induction worry modeled in the game. Use it to advantage. Set 25 ft exactly with both the text and voice announce the same and the result will be 22ft at the keel with relative calm water occasionally washing over the main deck. The diesles will stay engaged. If the weather gets rough enough to wash over the bridge, the engines will switch automatically to battery and back again. The advantages to using the awash profile while trying to maximize surface stealth is notable if you can afford the additional drag and lowered range and speed while using it. Even the deck and AA gun remain manable if the weather isn't too rough. This general behavior has not really changed from SH3.

There is NO profile (speed, depth, thermal, Silent Running) you can use in the game (and never has been) that puts the sub in Romulan Stealth mode which makes you totally invisible to everyone all the time. If there was, everyone would use the secret formulae and never get attacked and never get sunk. The game is coded in such a way as there are very few totally riskless activities. There's random luck and doom factors. It's war. We lost a lot of subs even though we had the best equipped and best trained men in the world near the end of the war.

-Pv-

07-26-07, 06:54 PM	#61
Bando Commodore Join Date: May 2007 Location: Where you don't see me Posts: 607 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	Jace, what you're saying is running at surface, decks awash? __________________ Regards, Bando

07-26-07, 08:11 PM	#64
Fearless Ace of the Deep Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 1,047 Downloads: 340 Uploads: 1	Actually, it would be great to have a command setting to place you at 'decks awash' stage. The other one would be a "Rigged for Dive" command. From what I've read so far was that Fleet type subs were at rigged for dive stage as soon as they departed so that minimal effort to submerge the sub was required. __________________ Fearless System Specs: AMD Ryzen 7 5800X 8 Core 16 Thread CPU, 3.8GHz Base Clock, 4.7GHz Boost, 105W TDP, 32MB L3 cache \| MSI GeForce RTX3060Ti 8Gb Graphics \| Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro 32Gb (2x16Gb) 3200 MHz CL16 DDR4 Ram \| Samsung 970 Evo Plus NVMe SSD 1TB \| Seagate Barracuda 2.5in 2TB HDD \| AOC QHD 165 Hz FreeSync HDR curved 31.5in Monitor \| ASUS ROG Strix LC 240 ARGB AIO Liquid CPU Cooler White Edition \| ASUS ROG Strix Gold 750W Modular Power Supply \| Corsair iCUE 5000X RGB Tempered Glass Mid Tower Case White.

07-26-07, 10:39 PM	#65
scrag Medic Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Posts: 161 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	So far... Not sure I am a big fan of 1.3. The Merchies seem to be uncanny in the ability to target me with there guns (Me at tnight DIW and waiting for them to draw near. Also the airpatrols are ridiculous (central pacific being attacked by a single engine A/C no Carrier or TF near. Weird. US Tactics developed where surfcae approach racing in and getting torps off at 2 - 3 k or closer then evading (on the surface and then repositioning to attack again after reloading. Now I spend more time at PD bow on waiting to have the target come run me over to shoot. Yet the DD's are seem to detect me more frequently while escorting merchants - as I have been able to successfully approach and sink carriers and one cruiser twice now and live to tell about it. I also had a single torp kill on a CA - weird she blew like a chinese fire works factory fire. __________________

07-31-07, 07:57 PM	#72
Capt. Shark Bait Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: in a convergance zone Posts: 1,186 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	i don't think it needs to be changed. i spent almost 2hrs submerged and stationary at 330ft while a DD and a d@mm tincan subchaser dropped and fired depth charges all around, above and below me. before i ordered all stop i was at 250ft, well below the layer, and both seemed quite able to find me despite running silent at 1-3kts __________________ Leiser und tödlicher edler Ritter der Tiefe Corsair Vengeance M70; ASUS Crosshair V Formula-Z; FX 8350; Asus 7870; Samsung SyncMaster 2243SWX; coolmax CUG950B 950w psu; 8GB Kingston HyperX DDR3; Corsair M4 SSD 128GB, WD 1TB; x18 DVR212D; 7SP1

07-26-07, 07:16 PM	#62
Jace11 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 683 Downloads: 104 Uploads: 1	Yup, try 8 meters on the dial (if using metric) or the equivelent in feet. It definatley reduces their visual range.. it does help, but I just got spotted in one of my test missions, range was 2800m.. 1.3 sets the minimum surface area (in sim.cfg) much less than mine, so it my be less effective. Plus DD's have radars that can pick up anything bigger than a door at long range, so it wont work against them, however an unescorted tanker or merchent would be a good target to experiment on, and the quicker crash dive (literally a few seconds..) is a bonus..

07-26-07, 11:09 PM	#66
theluckyone17 Captain Join Date: May 2006 Location: Niskayuna, NY Posts: 482 Downloads: 103 Uploads: 0	Oh, I have to agree... the ASW is getting kinda tiring, with 1.3 installed, and TM1. Not boring, but tiring. I was patrolling Sagami Bay, just outside Tokyo Bay. With the deep water, and early '42 convoys leaving Tokyo according to the SH4 map, I figured it'd be worth a try. I'd spend most nights on the surface, and most days under water at about 100 feet. If I picked up an warships, I went to 250 feet, 1 knot or less, and silent running. This pair of warships (destroyer and a subchaser, I believe) passed me twice. On their third time around, I was unlucky enough to pass right underneath them. The destroyer never heard me... but the trailing subchaser did. Instantly, the active sonar started up, and it was a lost fight from there. I'd twist and turn, trying to keep the pinging warship off my beam. Raising my speed helped get my bow around, but the other warship must've been listening off to the side, since I never managed to lose them. Just going deep (300'), with silent running, and less than a knot speed, failed to help. They continued to ping, and continued to drop depth charges. I'd continue to twist, alternate depth (250' to 300'), and finally just staying slow & quiet (again, 1 knot or less). Only one near miss actually damaged me... enough to take out both 'scopes, deck & AA gun. Needless to say, the patrol was over at that point, and the warships continued making runs at me, regardless of anything I tried. Wife finally came in, requesting a tuck-in, and I said the heck with it... quit the patrol without saving, posted this, and went to bed.

07-27-07, 12:42 AM	#67
Excalibur Bane XO Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 429 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	I noticed they said in the patch notes, that gunners get better if they continue firing at the same target (Not the exact quote but you get the idea) which is odd, because I've experienced almost exactly the opposite. I often surface at night to engage lone or pair merchants that are unescorted. I ran into a pair of tankers, both with fore and aft gun mountings and both of them raining shells on me and they hit me twice in about 10 mins of continous exchanges (I don't man the deckgun myself). On top of that, the merchants guns do little to no damage at all. Neither of the two shells that hit, left a mark on the hull or produced any damage. Not even a "We're under attack, sir!" per usual. Though I've noticed they will now train the AA guns on you when you get in range, I don't remember them doing that in 1.2 I sat and watched the gunners with the binoculars and they either shot about 200 feet in front of their own ship or fired at a 70 degree angle in the air. That's some pretty weird gunning for a merchant ship, they can't be THAT bad.

07-31-07, 08:51 AM	#70
Tom C Swabbie Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	Okay, I take back what I said about decks awash. I was reading a chapter in Galantin's "Take Her Deep!" last night where he mentions that, in a gale, they shut the main induction to keep the water out but could still run the diesels at slow speed with the draw of air through the bridge hatch.

07-31-07, 08:40 PM	#73
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	I just thought id mention the obvious that thermal layer implmentation in SH4 is not a magical boundry from which no sonar may pass. It is merely a reduction in signal strength, nothing more. Even when below a layer, there is still more variables at play which help the AI detect you. Think of thermal layers in Sh4 as a pair of earmuffs or earplugs. Even while wearing them, you can still hear people talk. You may not make out every word, but you can usually understand whats being said none the less.

07-31-07, 09:44 PM	#74
orangenee Engineer Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 211 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I have to say since 1.3 I'm getting a lot more DDs coming after me on their own well away from any convoys, I even had a Gunboat come after me as well before, this is in '41!! So they appear to be really switched on now!!

07-31-07, 09:54 PM	#75
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	"...Not sure if I agree regarding decks awash, at a certain point depending on the sea state you're risking water down the main induction, and that's a good time to switch to battery. Also I don't know about the diesel exhausts, with decks awash they might be underwater, I imagine there could be backpressure problems?..." None of that induction worry modeled in the game. Use it to advantage. Set 25 ft exactly with both the text and voice announce the same and the result will be 22ft at the keel with relative calm water occasionally washing over the main deck. The diesles will stay engaged. If the weather gets rough enough to wash over the bridge, the engines will switch automatically to battery and back again. The advantages to using the awash profile while trying to maximize surface stealth is notable if you can afford the additional drag and lowered range and speed while using it. Even the deck and AA gun remain manable if the weather isn't too rough. This general behavior has not really changed from SH3. There is NO profile (speed, depth, thermal, Silent Running) you can use in the game (and never has been) that puts the sub in Romulan Stealth mode which makes you totally invisible to everyone all the time. If there was, everyone would use the secret formulae and never get attacked and never get sunk. The game is coded in such a way as there are very few totally riskless activities. There's random luck and doom factors. It's war. We lost a lot of subs even though we had the best equipped and best trained men in the world near the end of the war. -Pv-