Type XXI? The saviour?

[Tachyon]

If the Type XXI had been introduced early, say around 1940, how would it have affected the outcome of the war? In particular, the arrival of D-DAY ?

[Respenus]

I always say it would, but this belong to those "What if...?" moments in history and is not very well accepted among those true Kaleuns who keep their history books straight (and I might just be wrong).

[CruiseTorpedo]

I dont know about D-Day, but 1940? Heck ya it would have made a huge difference! 6 forward firing tubes, high speed while submerged, snorkel device, quick reload, and lots more! Who wouldnt believe it would have tipped the scales in 1940?

[Sulikate]

Originally Posted by CruiseTorpedo

I dont know about D-Day, but 1940? Heck ya it would have made a huge difference! 6 forward firing tubes, high speed while submerged, snorkel device, quick reload, and lots more! Who wouldnt believe it would have tipped the scales in 1940?

I agree. This boats could change quite a few battles all over the atlantic.

Go XXI! (and what about the Walter boats, these were amazing!)

[STEED]

The XXI in 1940 fat chance that was the year Hitler put the skids on long term research. And any way Germany would had still lost the war around late 1945 or by 1946. And America got the bomb, don't forget that one.

[bookworm_020]

If there had been the number of U-Boats that Donitiz had wanted (300) I think England would have been in deep trouble, regardless of what type of boat they were. It would have cut the supplies that Britain depended apon to survive, let alone fight with.

If England had fallen, would had America gone to war with Germany? Unkown, It would have been very hard to fight the German's from such a great distance. Even though F.D.R wanted to fight with England from an early stage, political will was against it. There was also strong support for Germany in Amercia, with such groups as the Bund, openly behind Hitler. Many people thought that this war wasn't for them, and prefered that American stay neutral.

The Bombing of Peal Harbour changed that view. So it's just a case of "what if"

[P_Funk]

Of course America would have joined the war. If Britain fell then there'd be no choice. Even back then when Americans were ignorant of a world view.

[P_Funk]

Its a well known fact that it wasn't technological inferiority that killed Germany. The true killer was her industrial inferiority compared to the Allies. The XXI at the time it was introduced in the dying days of the war was capable of defeating all the advanced escort tactics and detection systems. The XXI was a huge step forward as it was a U-Boat that was actally designed to operate underwater primarily while all previous U-boats were merely surface ships with an ability to submerge as a means of escape.

You can look at the XXI alone and know that it could have owned the shipping routes throughout the whole war but that is a very isolated and unrealistic way to look at it. If there was a way for the XXI to have been a major impact on the Battle of the Atlantic it would have required more than just initiative to get it produced. Under the circumstances where there could have been enough type XXIs early enough in the war Germany would have to have had a much better industrial output and of course if this were true then the whole war would have been affected and thats much bigger than the XXI.

So in reality all these what ifs taht involves more than just individual decisions are more than just small little considerations but really involve re-evaluating the whole war.

EDIT. and yeah STEED is right. The Americans had the bomb so Germany would have been blasted anyway. Germany's nuclear program was a dead end. Though as I said if Germany could have produced the XXI in 1940 in large numbers it cuold have changed the way the war went completely because more production increases Germany's ability to fight Britain or maybe invade it successfully or maybe not lose Africa or maybe actually be able to overrun Russia before the Winter.

These waht ifs involve changing alot more than just the Nazi building qeue.

[Hartmann]

Perhaps they were too confident about the war course and not put the enough resources in 1940 renoving the u boat force, at least to arrive in 1943 with better boats or snorkels.

type XXI In 1940 could break havoc in the british navy and probably collapsing britain army .


A letter to roosevelt from churchill:


The mortal danger we face is the steady & increasing diminution of sea tonnage.Unless we can establish our ability to feed this island we may fall by the way.In the five weeks ending nov3 1940 britains losses totaled 420.000 tons, a figure comparable to the worst YEAR in ww1.The british govt.estimated that it would take a minimum 43 millon tons to keep britain going but the five week loss in nov cut the rate to 37 million tons.England wouldnot survive 1941 if this continued

[Stealth Hunter]

Perhaps it could have been the saviour of the Kreigsmarine and Germany. The only bad comments I have on it are that it lacks a deckgun that is used against ships and it lacks a stern torpedo tube. Lets face it, if I have a ship on my tail I expect to be able to defend myself rather than have to round about over and over while diving and surfacing trying to shake the enemy off my tail.

EDIT: Germany would have benefitted in my opinion if they had Focke Wulf fighters in 1940 and Me-323's. The Me's would land troops, tanks, and supplies in Britain's field regions and be covered by the Wulf's which had superior cannons and mg fire (6 cannons and 2 mg's). Not only that, but the Wulf's were fuel friendly meaning they could go quite a distance in bad weather and be very effective at the same time against the allies. The air battles in Russia showed its superiority. The motor of the Zero was bugged and its fuel lines were lightly armored. A single burst from a Corsair could rip the wings off a Zero in seconds and ignite a fire. The Japanese at tactics in the air sucked big time.

[Dan0859]

The big question here is logistics. If Germany had sufficient numbers of subs, whether they were XXI's or not, the British wouldn't have been able to win the Battle of Britian, as they wouldn't have had the supplies needed. The Battle of Britian was an extremely close thing as it was. The RAF was literally at the end of it's logistical rope when Hitler decided to stop targeting the RAF airfields, radar installations, etc. Their ability to continue fighting was estimated to be a matter of several days. They simply didn't have enough planes, pilots, supplies, etc. Yes, the Germans had taken heavy losses, but they were better off at that point than the Brits were. Had the Brits lost the Battle of Britian, they probably would have been forced to accept some sort of negotiated peace, which is what Hitler wanted in the first place. The US would have lost it's staging grounds for the invasions in N. Africa, Italy and France. Trying to stage a cross-Atlantic amphibious invasion to retake Britian wouldn't have even been possible until years later.
Much the same thing applies to the Eastern Front. The invasion of the USSR started some 6 weeks late, as the Germans had to deal with the Balkans and Greece before the invasion took place ("Thank you, Benito!"). This forced the Germans to spend time, men and supplies that she really couldn't afford to.
Even so, the Germans could have pulled it off. Had they taken Moscow, they would have deprived the Soviets of their only supply route for all of the Eastern Front. Every railroad entering into, as well as within Russia, ran through Moscow. You couldn't take a train from city A to city B without going to Moscow first. It's still true today, just look at a map.
Had the Germans taken Moscow, the Soviets wouldn't have had any way to transport any significant amount of men or materials. They wouldn't have had the means to put together any large-scale organized resistance to the Germans. Also, just for the record, the Germans had no problems setting up proxy governments in the USSR (Ukraine, for example). The Russians were hated by a lot of people, who were more than willing to cooperate with the Germans.
As far as the A bomb is concerned, without the Brits bombing the German research facilities and heavy water supplies, the Germans would have had it before we did. Any guesses what would have happened to an American invasion force headed to Britian if the Germans had nuclear V-1 and V-2 rockets?
So, yes, I think in a "what if" scenario, if the Germans had adequate numbers of XXI's (or subs in general), it would have been very possible for them to have won the war. Britian would have been neutralized, the Americans would have been years away from being able to take any effective action against them, and the Germans would have been fighting on only one front.

[Corsair]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

EDIT: Germany would have benefitted in my opinion if they had Focke Wulf fighters in 1940 and Me-323's. The Me's would land troops, tanks, and supplies in Britain's field regions and be covered by the Wulf's which had superior cannons and mg fire (6 cannons and 2 mg's). Not only that, but the Wulf's were fuel friendly meaning they could go quite a distance in bad weather and be very effective at the same time against the allies. The air battles in Russia showed its superiority. The motor of the Zero was bugged and its fuel lines were lightly armored. A single burst from a Corsair could rip the wings off a Zero in seconds and ignite a fire. The Japanese at tactics in the air sucked big time.

For being a long time flight simmer and reading a lot, I can assure you that at the start of the Pacific war, the Zero was far superior to the F4s, P40s and P39s the US had on the other side, and that their pilots had a lot more experience. No plane had armored fuel lines, it was armor plates protecting the fuel tanks, and above all the lack of self-sealing tanks was the problem. Of course it was nimble and unarmored but it could draw circles around US planes and climb faster (as a US pilot said, it was like we were walking up the stairs and they took the lift...) The Corsair came in much later and was in the beginning more dangerous for its pilots than for the Japanese, hence his nickname "Ensign Eliminator"... Its role has been I think very exaggerated thru movies and TV series, the F6F was the plane that scored by far the majority of victories.
Imho, no FW190 had 6 cannons, but only 4, even the late war Doras. As far as the Russian front is concerned, I don't think it was superior to the late VVS fighters like the Yak3 or the LA7. I would any day much prefer flying a Bf 109 Gustav - G6 to G14... I don't like the lack of front visibility in the FW190...But it's just me...

[flakmonkey]

frankly in sh3 the type XXIs just dont work so they would have no effect on the wars outcome (in sh3 anyway)

[melnibonian]

I don't really think having the XXI early in the war would have made a difference in the overall outcome of the war. It might have lasted a bit longer but Germany would have lost in the end. I think that if the XXI had seen action in the Atlantic early in the war (1949-1941) the British loses would have been bigger but I don't think Britain would have been defeted. Don't forget that the Royal Navy and the British Goverment and Army could always find other bases for operations throughout the empire, without counting in the help and support of the USA and the Dominion nations (like Australia, NZ South Aftica etc). In my opinion the introduction of XXI early and the devastation of the British Navy would have prompter the Americans to join the war earlier than 1942. Obviously this is just an opinion about a 'what if' suggestion so I don't think there is a correct or wrong answer. It's fun to speculate though Also don't forget that the war for Germany was lost in Russia and not in the Atlantic. Germany was not a naval power and as long as its land power base (the Army, SS etc) were able to fight there was no way of being defeted (exactly as Great Britain was able to fight as long as the Royal Navy was operational)

[Hakahura]

In my opinion Germany could'nt have put the type XXI into service that early in the war. Certainly not in numbers, let alone in the fit we are used to seeing in SHIII.

Where were the resources to build such a vessel so early going to come from? To build it would have required sacrifices in other areas of Germany's forces that would have been far to unpalattable for her masters.

It's no good pointing the finger and saying "I would'nt have built up the surface force". Whilst generally not that effective and firing comparitivly few shots in anger compared to the U boats, the amount of resourse's they caused the Allies to tie up was huge. The same can be said of almost everything else in the German inventory. If it was'nt there, the Allies would'nt have had to counter it and therfore could have retailliated against Germany more quickly and effectivlly.

Nor can one suppose to just build and crew type XXIs instead of type VIIs, IXs ect. The time and effort required to build the new electro boats was far in eccess of the conventional earlier types.

Also at this early stage in the war many of the type XXI's weapons and advanced systems we are familiar through SHIII would have been anavailable. The advanced sonar suite... not yet. As for torpedos the best available in 1940... T1s and T2 electrics. So no pattern runners and no acoustic homing.

Would a fleet of type XXIs won the Battle of the Atlantic in 1940?
Possibly but then so would a fleet of Trafalgar's and Swiftsure's and that would be quite unlikly as well.

Just my opinion though. I have to confess to being a huge fan of "What if?" history myself and I would like to hear what others on the forum have got to say on the subject.