Type XXI? The saviour?
 

If the Type XXI had been introduced early, say around 1940, how would it have affected the outcome of the war? In particular, the arrival of D-DAY ?

I always say it would, but this belong to those "What if...?" moments in history and is not very well accepted among those true Kaleuns who keep their history books straight (and I might just be wrong).

I dont know about D-Day, but 1940? Heck ya it would have made a huge difference! 6 forward firing tubes, high speed while submerged, snorkel device, quick reload, and lots more! Who wouldnt believe it would have tipped the scales in 1940?

I agree. This boats could change quite a few battles all over the atlantic.

Go XXI! (and what about the Walter boats, these were amazing!)

The XXI in 1940 fat chance that was the year Hitler put the skids on long term research. And any way Germany would had still lost the war around late 1945 or by 1946. And America got the bomb, don't forget that one.

Its a well known fact that it wasn't technological inferiority that killed Germany. The true killer was her industrial inferiority compared to the Allies. The XXI at the time it was introduced in the dying days of the war was capable of defeating all the advanced escort tactics and detection systems. The XXI was a huge step forward as it was a U-Boat that was actally designed to operate underwater primarily while all previous U-boats were merely surface ships with an ability to submerge as a means of escape.

You can look at the XXI alone and know that it could have owned the shipping routes throughout the whole war but that is a very isolated and unrealistic way to look at it. If there was a way for the XXI to have been a major impact on the Battle of the Atlantic it would have required more than just initiative to get it produced. Under the circumstances where there could have been enough type XXIs early enough in the war Germany would have to have had a much better industrial output and of course if this were true then the whole war would have been affected and thats much bigger than the XXI.

So in reality all these what ifs taht involves more than just individual decisions are more than just small little considerations but really involve re-evaluating the whole war.

EDIT. and yeah STEED is right. The Americans had the bomb so Germany would have been blasted anyway. Germany's nuclear program was a dead end. Though as I said if Germany could have produced the XXI in 1940 in large numbers it cuold have changed the way the war went completely because more production increases Germany's ability to fight Britain or maybe invade it successfully or maybe not lose Africa or maybe actually be able to overrun Russia before the Winter.

These waht ifs involve changing alot more than just the Nazi building qeue.

If there had been the number of U-Boats that Donitiz had wanted (300) I think England would have been in deep trouble, regardless of what type of boat they were. It would have cut the supplies that Britain depended apon to survive, let alone fight with.

If England had fallen, would had America gone to war with Germany? Unkown, It would have been very hard to fight the German's from such a great distance. Even though F.D.R wanted to fight with England from an early stage, political will was against it. There was also strong support for Germany in Amercia, with such groups as the Bund, openly behind Hitler. Many people thought that this war wasn't for them, and prefered that American stay neutral.

The Bombing of Peal Harbour changed that view. So it's just a case of "what if"

Perhaps they were too confident about the war course and not put the enough resources in 1940 renoving the u boat force, at least to arrive in 1943 with better boats or snorkels.

type XXI In 1940 could break havoc in the british navy and probably collapsing britain army .


A letter to roosevelt from churchill:


The mortal danger we face is the steady & increasing diminution of sea tonnage.Unless we can establish our ability to feed this island we may fall by the way.In the five weeks ending nov3 1940 britains losses totaled 420.000 tons, a figure comparable to the worst YEAR in ww1.The british govt.estimated that it would take a minimum 43 millon tons to keep britain going but the five week loss in nov cut the rate to 37 million tons.England wouldnot survive 1941 if this continued

Of course America would have joined the war. If Britain fell then there'd be no choice. Even back then when Americans were ignorant of a world view.

Type XXIs
 

I don't know what to say about Type XXIs being introduced earlier in the war, but several of them served in the French and Soviet Navies post-war (and of course, Germany raised one for post-war useand eventually as a museum). The French ones served until the 1960s, and the Soviet ones served until the late 1950s (although one was retained as a training vessel until 1973). All of those were eventually scrapped.:nope: Also, the British and US appeared to be only interested in gaining information from the XXI design, and then using them as targets.:o But I guess post war designs built from the knowledge gained through these subs rendered them obsolete in the post war years anyway.

BTW - I don't think any Type XXIIIs saw any extensive service with Allied post-war navies - the USSR and Norway each commissioned one into their respective navies, but sthe Norwegian one was scrapped soon after. I think some VIIs and IXs saw service with the French, Soviet, Norwegian, and Spanish navies until the 1950s-1970s (I think they were all VIIC, VIIC/41, IXC, and maybe IXC/40).

I remember reading quite specifically in Albert Speer's memoirs about how he and Doenitz decided to manufacture the XXI, and wondering why they hadn't done it years earlier as all the concepts in its design had existed for quite a while, already.

IMO If the XXI was around in 1940 Germany would of defeated Britain in the atlantic war. But they then would of had a new problem - america. And no doubt subs do get captured, fate would have it that a XXI would of fallen into the allies hands where say america with their huge production line would of made there own versions of the XXI and put more out than what germany could.

Also America/Britain slowed down the production of uboats with bombing raids on bases this would of been another problem.

frankly in sh3 the type XXIs just dont work so they would have no effect on the wars outcome (in sh3 anyway)

I don't really think having the XXI early in the war would have made a difference in the overall outcome of the war. It might have lasted a bit longer but Germany would have lost in the end. I think that if the XXI had seen action in the Atlantic early in the war (1949-1941) the British loses would have been bigger but I don't think Britain would have been defeted. Don't forget that the Royal Navy and the British Goverment and Army could always find other bases for operations throughout the empire, without counting in the help and support of the USA and the Dominion nations (like Australia, NZ South Aftica etc). In my opinion the introduction of XXI early and the devastation of the British Navy would have prompter the Americans to join the war earlier than 1942. Obviously this is just an opinion about a 'what if' suggestion so I don't think there is a correct or wrong answer. It's fun to speculate though :know: Also don't forget that the war for Germany was lost in Russia and not in the Atlantic. Germany was not a naval power and as long as its land power base (the Army, SS etc) were able to fight there was no way of being defeted (exactly as Great Britain was able to fight as long as the Royal Navy was operational)

In my opinion Germany could'nt have put the type XXI into service that early in the war. Certainly not in numbers, let alone in the fit we are used to seeing in SHIII.

Where were the resources to build such a vessel so early going to come from? To build it would have required sacrifices in other areas of Germany's forces that would have been far to unpalattable for her masters.

It's no good pointing the finger and saying "I would'nt have built up the surface force". Whilst generally not that effective and firing comparitivly few shots in anger compared to the U boats, the amount of resourse's they caused the Allies to tie up was huge. The same can be said of almost everything else in the German inventory. If it was'nt there, the Allies would'nt have had to counter it and therfore could have retailliated against Germany more quickly and effectivlly.

Nor can one suppose to just build and crew type XXIs instead of type VIIs, IXs ect. The time and effort required to build the new electro boats was far in eccess of the conventional earlier types.

Also at this early stage in the war many of the type XXI's weapons and advanced systems we are familiar through SHIII would have been anavailable. The advanced sonar suite... not yet. As for torpedos the best available in 1940... T1s and T2 electrics. So no pattern runners and no acoustic homing.

Would a fleet of type XXIs won the Battle of the Atlantic in 1940?
Possibly but then so would a fleet of Trafalgar's and Swiftsure's and that would be quite unlikly as well.

Just my opinion though. I have to confess to being a huge fan of "What if?" history myself and I would like to hear what others on the forum have got to say on the subject.