The proposed health care bill thread (merged)

[August]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Whoops! I guess it only works one way. McCain ejects town hall protestor:

I watched the clip twice but didn't see anyone ejected. Didja mix your clips up?

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by August

I watched the clip twice but didn't see anyone ejected. Didja mix your clips up?

No, she was indeed escorted out:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/us_...osition=recent

[FIREWALL]

The woman being removed was a Heckler.

Not a protester.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

The woman being removed was a Heckler.

Not a protester.

Ah, I get it. So if you scream, shout and disrupt a Democrat's townhall to the point they can't speak, you're a protester. If you scream, shout and disrupt a Republican's townhall to the point they can't speak, you're a heckler. There's gaps in that logic so large you can drive a truck through.

Also, you're completely wrong:

http://cameron.blogs.foxnews.com/200...uption-at-mcca ins-townhall-hivaids-activists-interfere/
(Remove Spaces Where Needed)

It seems that the protesters (not just one, but many) were for HIV/AIDS funding, to which McCain has not committed to. A comment by one of the protesters on the Fox News site will say it way better than I can:

"I was one of the protesters at this event. The reason for the protest was that we actually have asked him MANY times to commit to funding for HIV/AIDS, actually we’ve asked him for more than that, and he, like the other republican candidates who we’ve also asked the same questions to, has not committed to funding at all. Our largest asks is that he commit for the U.S. to give aid to 1/3 of the people in the world with the disease, our fair share as we control 1/3 of the wealth in the world.

McCain hides behind generalizations like “corrupt governments” who do not deserve money to help their people. He doesn’t care that 8,000 people die every day around the world from HIV/AIDS. The truth is, the money the United States would spend would really be given to non-governmental organizations, on the ground so that it was in direct contact with the people who need it.

He’s been asked, politely many many times already. We are tired of his lack of response, and we hope that our drastic measures will allow him to understand that we are in fact very serious about this issue.

And at the very end, he did allow the girl he was talking to in this clip to ask a question, she asked two, he answered one, and he still stuck to his line that he will not fund corrupt governments.

He needs to come out with a plan, if it’s not ours, then he needs one that will work for him, but he hasn’t seen the last of us.

For more info on our asks, go to: http://www.08stopaids.org/files/08SA...20platform.pdf

or:http://www.08stopaids.org/"

[August]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

No, she was indeed escorted out:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/us_...osition=recent

But I don't see your point here Mookie.

Are you trying to tell us that political rally protestors/hecklers being escorted from the premises are only gang tackled and tased by the police at Democrat rallys and not at Republicans? That doesn't say much about your favorite party now does it?

[AVGWarhawk]

You know what is so great about about this healthcare bill? The government can use it just like a bank. They take money from medicare and SS already. So hey, why not add another ATM machine for Pelosi

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by August

But I don't see your point here Mookie.

Are you trying to tell us that political rally protestors/hecklers being escorted from the premises are only gang tackled and tased by the police at Democrat rallys and not at Republicans? That doesn't say much about your favorite party now does it?

The point is that if you go to a town hall and hold up signs comparing Obama to Hitler, scream at the Democratic congresscritter to "keep yer damn government hands off my Medicare!" and generally do everything you can to disrupt the proceedings, you're lauded by Fox News (not to mention the wingy-est wingnuts here) as "expressing your freedom of speech" and are labelled a protestor and true patriot (insert "I'm Proud To Be An American" recording here.) If these people were kicked out of the Dem's townhalls, Fox News would be blowing up over it and there would be riots.

Buuuuut...do the same thing at a Repub townhall and you're kicked out and labelled a heckler. (Which, by the way, is what should happen with ANYONE who disrupts one of these things, but that's not the point I'm making here)

Can you see the double standard?

[August]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

The point is that if you go to a town hall and hold up signs comparing Obama to Hitler, scream at the Democratic congresscritter to "keep yer damn government hands off my Medicare!" and generally do everything you can to disrupt the proceedings, you're lauded by Fox News (not to mention the wingy-est wingnuts here) as "expressing your freedom of speech" and are labelled a protestor and true patriot (insert "I'm Proud To Be An American" recording here.) If these people were kicked out of the Dem's townhalls, Fox News would be blowing up over it and there would be riots.

Buuuuut...do the same thing at a Repub townhall and you're kicked out and labelled a heckler. (Which, by the way, is what should happen with ANYONE who disrupts one of these things, but that's not the point I'm making here)

Can you see the double standard?

The only double standard I see is that Fox is but one opposing voice in a group of powerful networks who are even more biased, but to the opposing side.

None of them are going to show you the heckler that doesn't get kicked out and is allowed to say his or her piece because that doesn't fit the evil Republican stereotype that they have created and promote daily.

[Richard G]

I don't like this whole healthcare thing for one reason. Its unconstitutional.

Congress has very specific powers enumerated to it in the Constitution. Powers not granted to the Congress by the document are reserved to the States. A huge healthcare entitlement is not one of Congress powers, but a State or States could enact one (and some have).

Its a short list of powers. Here they are:

Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

You know what is so great about about this healthcare bill? The government can use it just like a bank. They take money from medicare and SS already. So hey, why not add another ATM machine for Pelosi

Hey uhhh you do know those programs are broke too right?

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Richard G

I don't like this whole healthcare thing for one reason. Its unconstitutional.

Congress has very specific powers enumerated to it in the Constitution. Powers not granted to the Congress by the document are reserved to the States. A huge healthcare entitlement is not one of Congress powers, but a State or States could enact one (and some have).

Its a short list of powers. Here they are:

Richard your post is right on the mark.

Unfortunatly it seems the constitution is being totally disregarded at the moment and at least half the population is not even aware of it.

[Aramike]

Richard G, you're wrong. Badly. In fact, its in the very first portion of the Constitution you quoted:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Emphasis added by me.

This is not a Constitutional issue. While I believe that opponents to the current bill are correct, I also believe it is unwise of them to try to frame it in some way that winds up being, well, nutjob.

[Richard G]

Well, "general welfare of the Unites States" is a far cry from "removing the hemorrhoids from my/yours/every Americans ass".

A very specific, and personal issue.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Well, "general welfare of the Unites States" is a far cry from "removing the hemorrhoids from my/yours/every Americans ass".

A very specific, and personal issue.

Yes, because that's ALL health insurance covers. Hemorrhoid treatment.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Yes, because that's ALL health insurance covers. Hemorrhoid treatment.

But your personal healthcare is not "general welfare". It is your personal responsibility. Your healthcare does not belong to me or other taxpayers. It belongs to you completely. I have no domain, say or control of your personal healthcare, nor do I want any control of it. This is where Democrats abuse of the Constitution is highlighted. Ultimately liberals can attempt to make the "general welfare" argument for many things if they are so inclined. Universal housing, Universal automobile loans, Universal auto insurance, Universal home owners insurance, and everything else a Democrat thinks the taxpayer should be underwriting for them.

Would you like the taxpayers underwriting these things for you mookie? And if not...why not? These are all critical things a person needs to function in society, right? In fact, one could argue you could die without them. The issue is, the founders of this nation did not intend "cradle to grave" statism for people unwilling to view themselves as independant entities responsible for their own sustinence. That is clear and established regardless of liberal wet dreams of redistribution. It is vulgar the way "general welfare" has been so abused. That is a mockery of liberty. Richard G is correct. They did not intend for a federal entity, seizing by force the time and property of other individuals to distribute to others. In this case taxpayers and physicians. There is a way to reform health care, but not in this type of statist and intrusive government way.