Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[Redwine]

Well, same conclusion than Caspofungin...... you reduce active and pasive sonars beam near to let them blind and they still prey on you as rabid dogs. :hmm: (U-505 stock mission)

Did some body done some changes on sim.cfg as Marhkimov suggested ?

We need to localize the file wich give them taht Ubber capability

[Redwine]

Testing changes on sim.cfg :

Hydrophones has a line Height Factor

Aparently this line with a negative number put a ceiling limit for sensor.

Sonar sensor has not this line, i add this line to it, and adjust a negative valur in example -15 or -25, then DDs are not able to ping you under these depths.

Speed Factor, this line may be is a speed limit to use the sensor, in example if i put a value 10 on Hydrophones, the DD can not use the sensor above this value in Knots.

I have nothing to do today....... except i need to help my kid on school homework now, by one hour....... be back :P

[CB..]

cheers again red (tho i don't really merit such praise!+ )

i used the sim.cfg entrys a lot in the original un-patched game and they were very effective in controling the DD sensors-
sadly in the patched game things seem to be working differently--and the sim.cfg entrys seem to be less effective than before--i don't know if this is just my experience tho-- prior to the patch you could use the noise and waves factors to precisely control at what point the DD's detected you
these were the settings i used pre patch

[Hydrophone]
Detection time=2 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Noise factor=0.6 ;[>=0]

[Sonar]
Detection time=5 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=20 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=200 ;[m2]
Lose time=20

these are the settings i'm trying at the moment (with the 1.4b patch)

[Hydrophone]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Noise factor=1.0 ;[>=0]

[Sonar]
Detection time=5 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=200 ;[m2]
Lose time=20

tho i'm not sure if they are really having any major effect


what is the hydrophone line height factor?
how do you add it to the entrys?

sounds interesting
i still don't know why the DD's are dropping their main dc's at the wrong moment (they do all their damage with the k-guns so far)
i'm allso wondering if giving the active sonar and extended detection time of even 15 seconds might give you time to evade the pin point drops your having it would take the sonar operator at least 15 seconds to pan the sonar head round lsitening for echoes (it probably would have taken him at least a minute !) so that might be the key?

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by CB..

tho i'm not sure if they are really having any major effect

I note a strange behavior, some times is easy to shake them and some times it is too hard or near to imposible, with same file settings. Some times i think there is a hidden key making the mission random..... :hmm:

Originally Posted by CB..

what is the hydrophone line height factor?
how do you add it to the entrys?

Just add the line from Hydrophones into Sonar like this......

[Sonar]
Detection time=5 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=200 ;[m2]
Lose time=20

If you put in example :

Height factor=-25 ;[m]

If i am not wrong they can not ping you between surface and 25 meters depth.

Originally Posted by CB..

sounds interesting
i still don't know why the DD's are dropping their main dc's at the wrong moment (they do all their damage with the k-guns so far)

May be a characteristic of the file set from diferent mods you are using.

Originally Posted by CB..

i'm allso wondering if giving the active sonar and extended detection time of even 15 seconds might give you time to evade the pin point drops your having it would take the sonar operator at least 15 seconds to pan the sonar head round lsitening for echoes (it probably would have taken him at least a minute !) so that might be the key?

in my files, active detection time is 20 sec, i dont have a previous back-up of it, this means it is the 1.4b setting, 20 seconds.
If not, i have this file from a mod i cant remember. Any way with 20sec they are still deadly.

Detection time for Hydrophones is 1 second.

Try and share comments.

[caspofungin]

let's standardize our test mission, too. currently, i'm going 1 on 1 w/ a black swan, 1939 vintage, start on the surface 5000m apart, heading towards each other at 10kts. I'm not sure if being spotted on the surface improves their ability (the already tracking variable?)

[CB..]

Cheers red
will add the heightfactor to the file and see how i go on--
here's a thought -- i wonder if it was easyier to tell the depth of a u-boat if it was deep than if it was shallow--?
as the length of time it would take the echoe to return from depth would be longer --surely it was easyier to gauge the difference between say 100 metres and 120 metres- than it was to guage the difference between 25 metres and 50?
as the ping would come back at pretty much the same time-- this would make the heightfactor quite an interesting tactical change? i dunno

perhaps it might actually work a lot better if the lose time for the active and hydrophones was 1 second--forcing the DD's to constantly re-aquire the contact-

might make them behave in an interesting fashion?
i'm wondering if with the lose time set at 20 seconds they retain contact with you even tho you are behind them and they are at 25 knots simply because the lose time dictates that they cannot lose contact untill the 20 seconds are up?
20 seconds isn't very long - but it is enough time for the DD to slow down after a dc run and get below the max speed for sensors? perhaps meaning they never lose contact at all?

[gouldjg]

Originally Posted by CB..

Cheers red
will add the heightfactor to the file and see how i go on--
here's a thought -- i wonder if it was easyier to tell the depth of a u-boat if it was deep than if it was shallow--?
as the length of time it would take the echoe to return from depth would be longer --surely it was easyier to gauge the difference between say 100 metres and 120 metres- than it was to guage the difference between 25 metres and 50?
as the ping would come back at pretty much the same time-- this would make the heightfactor quite an interesting tactical change? i dunno

perhaps it might actually work a lot better if the lose time for the active and hydrophones was 1 second--forcing the DD's to constantly re-aquire the contact-

might make them behave in an interesting fashion?
i'm wondering if with the lose time set at 20 seconds they retain contact with you even tho you are behind them and they are at 25 knots simply because the lose time dictates that they cannot lose contact untill the 20 seconds are up?
20 seconds isn't very long - but it is enough time for the DD to slow down after a dc run and get below the max speed for sensors? perhaps meaning they never lose contact at all?

I feel lose time and contact time could be influenced here. I also feel that if this was done you could lenghen the sensor ranges.

The big question is just how screwed up other stuff may become.

Did SH2 DD always track for subs and SH3 does not and requires an alert status to be reached before it switched these on?

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

let's standardize our test mission, too. currently, i'm going 1 on 1 w/ a black swan, 1939 vintage, start on the surface 5000m apart, heading towards each other at 10kts. I'm not sure if being spotted on the surface improves their ability (the already tracking variable?)

Put your mission on rapidshare to test on it too, i test the files on U-505 ans Barham missions.
About to being spotet on surface, i am not sure, but almost in the files settings i am testing now, if they spot your periscope, sight or may be radar, they become incredible more agresive.

Originally Posted by CB..

here's a thought -- i wonder if it was easyier to tell the depth of a u-boat if it was deep than if it was shallow--?

I can ucerstand well, sorry my bad english.

Originally Posted by CB..

as the length of time it would take the echoe to return from depth would be longer --surely it was easyier to gauge the difference between say 100 metres and 120 metres- than it was to guage the difference between 25 metres and 50?
as the ping would come back at pretty much the same time-- this would make the heightfactor quite an interesting tactical change? i dunno

May be posible is like your explanation, a minimun distance at wich the sensor can measure the time of echo return, i was tinking it was a ceiling limit for the sensor, anyway it looks as a limitation on the sensor we can use to change DDs behavior.

Originally Posted by CB..

perhaps it might actually work a lot better if the lose time for the active and hydrophones was 1 second--forcing the DD's to constantly re-aquire the contact-
might make them behave in an interesting fashion?

It sound so interesting, may be a good key to control DDs capability, will test it.

Originally Posted by CB..

i'm wondering if with the lose time set at 20 seconds they retain contact with you even tho you are behind them and they are at 25 knots simply because the lose time dictates that they cannot lose contact untill the 20 seconds are up?
20 seconds isn't very long - but it is enough time for the DD to slow down after a dc run and get below the max speed for sensors? perhaps meaning they never lose contact at all?

If it is correct may be the key for Ubber Dds. DDs are linked to you by the program.
Did you tested lower times ?

Originally Posted by gouldjg

I feel lose time and contact time could be influenced here. I also feel that if this was done you could lenghen the sensor ranges.

The big question is just how screwed up other stuff may become.

Did SH2 DD always track for subs and SH3 does not and requires an alert status to be reached before it switched these on?

Some times looks it is true, if you remain in silent running or engine stoped, and DDs do not had spotted you before, they pass over you without know you are there under them.

Just rise up your periscope or put ahead flank by some seconds and they wake-up and start up searching for you as rabid dogs.

[CB..]

interesting stuff!!
i do have doubled hydrophone range for the DD's so that can add some info
i tried the cfg settings with two seconds lose time for the sonar

[Hydrophone]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Noise factor=1.0 ;[>=0]

[Sonar]
Detection time=5 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=200 ;[m2]
Lose time=2


went convoy hunting ( i allways test in a career patrol rather than single missions)

i approached the convoy on the surface - was spotted by a DD and it opened fire with it's main guns-- i dived --it raced over but did not drop DC's (by the time it arrived it had lost the contact?)

so i ran at flank submerged to catch the convoy from the side
only going slow when in range of the DD's - when i got detected they behaved differently than normal-
as usual one attacked whilst another circled but after the second attack it left and went back to it's normal escort position -

when the lone DD detected me again (enemy is pinging) the second DD returned to re join the attack

they didn't have any trouble detecting me and the small lose time didn't stop them from re-gaining contact with me

i quite liked the way they behaved as it gave me short periods of time where i could evade them before they re-gained sonar contact (it simulated the blind spot in a way)- and they were a whole lot more human and easily distracted - racing away only to immediately return if another DD got sonar contact
mind you they nailed me good and proper - and here's the funny part- they dropped their DC's at the right moment ( as the stern of the ship was slightly ahead ) so i'm not sure what that means
any how another career bites the dust LOL!! that's two in a row

it did effect the way they co-operated, so gradually increasing the lose time to see what happens would be a good way to test their tactics


i havent tried the height setting yet tho

what i was wondering about the u-boat depth perhaps being eaisier to detect when deep rather than shallow red- was that as the ping time would be short when pinging a shallow sub only a second or two difference in echoe time when shallow-- where as a deeper sub's echoe would benoticably longer making it easier to tell the difference between small depth changes? and if so the height entry would be a good way to simulate that

[Der Teddy Bar]

So is it the exact location or it the exact depth that you are trying to fix?

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by CB..

i havent tried the height setting yet tho

what i was wondering about the u-boat depth perhaps being eaisier to detect when deep rather than shallow red- was that as the ping time would be short when pinging a shallow sub only a second or two difference in echoe time when shallow-- where as a deeper sub's echoe would benoticably longer making it easier to tell the difference between small depth changes? and if so the height entry would be a good way to simulate that

Agree with you, a nearest target may be not preciselly positioned.
But i am not sure it the heigh factor is related to the long of the ping beam and its return.

May be a shadow zone near of the sea surface.

We have this two probabilities.

Or..... may be 3 ?
What about if depth factor is the depth at wich is located the sensor under keel ?

We need more tests

[caspofungin]

i'm still not sure about what effect variables have.

there seems to be some sort of uber sensor -- even w/ sonar and hydrophone sensitivities set to 0, when you get close enough to the escort, he detects you (as evidenced by the stealth meter) and even starts pinging you, even if you should theoretically be out of the beam of early war sonars (which i'm testing against.) 2 caveats, however -- as the distance increases (>200-300m) eventually he can't pick you up, regardless of speed/silent running/repairs. also, there's a blind spot off the beam of the escort -- can't tell you the exact angle but >=90 degrees.

i'll test w/ a sensitivity of 1 next.

regarding pinpoint dropping -- not sure if this is related to sensor sensitivity or not. in my series of tests (sens 0-0.03 (stock)) there's but pinpoint accuracy and error -- same escort, in the same attack, just different runs.

[caspofungin]

right, just starting to figure out the basics...

detection time
detection time has much more of an impact than sensitivity. a detection time of 0 for sonar and hydrophones will allow the escort to pick you up a long way away... i'm assuming that it affects the "sweep" time, ie the time that particular sensor takes to cover its alloted sector. limits of those sectors eg range, bearing, etc. are defined in ai_sensors, although i'm not sure of the relation between, for example, ai_sonar and types 144/147/etc. is ai_sonar or ai_hydrophones an overall limit? not sure.

sensitivity
sensitivity, i believe, is counter-intuitive. a lower value increases chance of detection. it's not a linear relationship, though -- going from 0.2 to 0.1 doesn't double the chance of detection.

noise factor
still not sure how this affects things. is this the effect of extraneous noise eg dc explosions? or is it related to the noise your sub is making eg silent vs not silent running?

ideally, dc's exploding should cause the escort to lose contact w/ you. that, in combination w/ the dead zone and baffles, should allow you an opportunity to make some distance and eventually escape.

however sensitive, it's alway possible to escape from 1 escort w/ basic sensors, even if it's an elite. add another escort, though, and its an order of magnitude harder, even if they are competent or veteran. 1 ship will always have contact w/ you. not sure if "creeping attack" was actually implemented, or if its a by product of collision avoidance a.i.

anyway, off to get a bite to eat. let me know what you guys think. i'm open to suggestion, and if you think i'm making incorrect assumptions, let me know.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Could "noise factor" be related to the amount of time that local water acoustics were ruined by various things like DC explosions or passage of screws/engines nearby? :hmm:

I realize this isn't much help, but thought I'd bring it up in case you all hadn't considered it yet.

[caspofungin]

yeah, that's what i thought initially, but it's hard to test -- need to get d/c'd and see if they lose contact (using stealth meter). very fiddly stuff...