Las Vegas: 59 dead in Mandalay Bay shooting

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

The only problem is that laws only apply to those that follow them.

And that is the core of it, everything else in the guns-'n-rifles controversy revolves around this.

In Germany, the gun laws are hilariously tight, I would even call them and the generla German attitude towards firearms hysterical. You are not allowed to just own a pistol, you have to be a sport club mmeber, you must conduct 18 shooting sessions per year which must be documented in writing and must be confirmed by a club president, and you have to participate in tournaments regularly, to illustrate your "need" of why you must hold a weapons license. You are not allowed to just own a pistol, not even just in yourhousehol, not carried in public. My father, age 73, quit sport shooting early this year and refused to obey to all that paternalism, and gave back his full license then. He was pissed. - Want to see a German popping up like corn? Tell him you want to have a pistol, its as if you press a button: plopp! We have some of the very tightest gun laws ince the world, and still they want to tighten the screws whenever somebody did somehting with a firearm. That over 99,9% of criminal deeds involving firearms, are done with illegal firearms, nobody cares for. It gets completely ignored, completely. They cannot get the criminals, so they relieve their steam at the cost of sport shooters and the right for private property. On the other side a documentary some days ago showed how easy you can get an illegal pistol in Germany if you know how. Police says (police!) in Berlin it takes you two hours, then you can have one, if you want.

And then there is the darknet.

Tightening gun laws on and on, just does not work. You hit the wrong crowd by that, to over 99.9%. You declare them all to be under general suspicion, and that they must prove their innocence - and they must prove it time and time and time again. And even then the public opinion and mainstream media nevertheless are hostile to them. You are expected to not wantintg to have a firearm, you are expected to just tick right, you are expected to be a good boy. And a servile victim. Being victim instead of defending yourself, declares your deüendency and indifference, and that are much wanted qualities nowadays.

The rate of deaths by car accidents trumps amok runs anyway, easily. But no outcry.

[Dowly]

Weapon count is now up to 23 found in the hotel room, also two bump fire stocks have been found.

[Onkel Neal]

So, confirmed no full autos? Maybe we need to tighten up on bump stocks and trigger cranks, etc.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

So, confirmed no full autos? Maybe we need to tighten up on bump stocks and trigger cranks, etc.

I didn't see any specifics being mentioned about the weapons, just that two bump stocks were found.

But yes, something that effectively turns your semi-auto into full-auto probably should not be very easy to get.

[STEED]

Why shares in gun firms rose after Vegas horror

http://news.sky.com/story/why-shares...orror-11065560

I am speechless.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by STEED

http://news.sky.com/story/why-shares...orror-11065560

I am speechless.

But not postless

[vienna]

Originally Posted by STEED

http://news.sky.com/story/why-shares...orror-11065560

I am speechless.

The majority of Americans are just as puzzled and appalled as yourself. We often can't believe simple, common sense efforts are so vehemently opposed by gun manufacturers and sellers. They attempt to hide the fact they are mainly interested in their profits by puffery such as positing themselves as defender of Constitutional rights much in the same way politicians attempt to bolster their spurious or vacuous stances by wrapping themselves in the Flag. I've already heard some of the gun advocates saying the shooter could have been stopped if the audience members in LV had been armed themselves, regardless of the fact the venue, like almost all such large gatherings do not permit the carrying of weapons, of any sort, onto the venues' premises. Why? Because of the possibility of some terrorist or domestic nut-job would take advantage of lax controls to carry out a close up and personal attack. That's why virtually every venue such as concerts, sports sites, amusement parks, etc., requires some sort of inspection or electronic screening prior to entry. That's the reality of the world. Sometimes some of the positions the NRA takes for its corporate masters defy any logic, such as the NRA's unwillingness to support a ban on the sale of weapons to individuals who are known to have mental or emotional conditions that render them incapable of being trusted with a weapon. Mentally ill persons cannot legally sign a simple contract, yet the NRA doesn't seem to see a problem with them owning or acquiring guns; mentally ill persons cannot be licensed to operate vehicles, yet the NRA doesn't seem to see a problem with them owning or acquiring guns; mentally ill persons are not legally allowed to hold positions requiring they assume responsibility for public safety, yet the NRA doesn't seem to see a problem with them owning or acquiring guns. There are many other simple, common sense issues with gun ownership that the majority of Americans would like to see addressed, but neither the NRA nor Congress are willing to address. The power of the NRA is way out of context with its size; its influence is solely due to the vast amounts of cash it throws about to get its way. Before the advent of 'Political Action Committees' (PACs) as a means to circumvent political campaign contribution and financing laws and regulations to funnel funds to politicians and parties, the NRA was just about the only way for the big bucks to get to the right politicians and influence legislation without actually tipping the hand as to the real purpose of the expenditure and it was all wrapped up in the protective shell of "we're defending the 2nd Amendment", regardless of the fact the 2nd Amendment isn't going anywhere, isn't really at risk, or really need such questionable defense. The way the NRA and others try to present their case reminds of the sort of tactics used to sell basically unneeded products: there wasn't a need for a "restless leg syndrome" medication until some drug company decide to create a demand by, essentially, creating a heretofore non-existent condition into order to dupe people prone to idle foot tapping into believe they were suffering from a dire medical condition. What is need is to take a step back from the gun lobby rhetoric and, when faced with questions about gun related issues, ask "Who is really, actually, benefiting from the lack of controls: public safety or the bank accounts of the manufacturers and sellers?"...






<O>

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel B.

I think the attention one receives after committing an act like this, whether or not they survive, plays more than a small part in their motivation.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

F███ that. Stop making these pieces of filth famous. Wipe their names and memories from history and focus on helping the survivors and the victims' families. It may not stop all of the wack jobs out there, but at least it will give them one less reason to commit murder. After all, who wants to be remembered for five minutes as "some douche who couldn't handle life"?

[/rant]

I agree Nathaniel, but that won't change the way the news media does things ... perhaps when they come up with a subscription to the news without advertising revenue being involved ... perhaps then we will see a change in news coverage, but until then all we have is our remote control.

I like guns in fact I love guns and had planned to travel to Nevada to purchase an Italian semi-auto 9 shot shotgun, but not now ... I'll just stay at home and pay more here.

Look at the laws in Nevada ... are they to blame?

[vienna]

On the subject of better ideas:





Funny thing about ideas: they require thought, consideration, and ultimately, action to be effective; re: Congress and Trump... don't hold your breath...







<O>

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Skybird

And that is the core of it, everything else in the guns-'n-rifles controversy revolves around this.

---

Tightening gun laws on and on, just does not work. You hit the wrong crowd by that, to over 99.9%. You declare them all to be under general suspicion, and that they must prove their innocence - and they must prove it time and time and time again. And even then the public opinion and mainstream media nevertheless are hostile to them. You are expected to not wanting to have a firearm, you are expected to just tick right, you are expected to be a good boy. And a servile victim. Being victim instead of defending yourself, declares your deüendency and indifference, and that are much wanted qualities nowadays.

I'm not at all trying to take a cheap shot at you or attack you, but this surprises me coming from a European. Its the type of stuff you hear here in the USA. However, there are people that continually push for these stricter laws and seem to be blind to the fact that they are not working. The strictest gun laws in the country are in Chicago...



And again, like you say, the crimes there are committed by the illegal guns...guns don't kill, people do. It's such a common sense concept that seems to be constantly overlooked to the point where it appears to be blatantly ignored. I'm a gun enthusiast, yeah...but I should not be made a victim by the government I support. I should not be made a target for criminals who wish to do me or my family harm.

The rate of deaths by car accidents trumps amok runs anyway, easily. But no outcry.

I just want to call attention to this. You're absolutely right.

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by vienna

The majority of Americans are just as puzzled and appalled as yourself. We often can't believe simple, common sense efforts are so vehemently opposed by gun manufacturers and sellers. They attempt to hide the fact they are mainly interested in their profits by puffery such as positing themselves as defender of Constitutional rights much in the same way politicians attempt to bolster their spurious or vacuous stances by wrapping themselves in the Flag. I've already heard some of the gun advocates saying the shooter could have been stopped if the audience members in LV had been armed themselves, regardless of the fact the venue, like almost all such large gatherings do not permit the carrying of weapons, of any sort, onto the venues' premises. Why? Because of the possibility of some terrorist or domestic nut-job would take advantage of lax controls to carry out a close up and personal attack. That's why virtually every venue such as concerts, sports sites, amusement parks, etc., requires some sort of inspection or electronic screening prior to entry. That's the reality of the world. Sometimes some of the positions the NRA takes for its corporate masters defy any logic, such as the NRA's unwillingness to support a ban on the sale of weapons to individuals who are known to have mental or emotional conditions that render them incapable of being trusted with a weapon. Mentally ill persons cannot legally sign a simple contract, yet the NRA doesn't seem to see a problem with them owning or acquiring guns; mentally ill persons cannot be licensed to operate vehicles, yet the NRA doesn't seem to see a problem with them owning or acquiring guns; mentally ill persons are not legally allowed to hold positions requiring they assume responsibility for public safety, yet the NRA doesn't seem to see a problem with them owning or acquiring guns. There are many other simple, common sense issues with gun ownership that the majority of Americans would like to see addressed, but neither the NRA nor Congress are willing to address. The power of the NRA is way out of context with its size; its influence is solely due to the vast amounts of cash it throws about to get its way. Before the advent of 'Political Action Committees' (PACs) as a means to circumvent political campaign contribution and financing laws and regulations to funnel funds to politicians and parties, the NRA was just about the only way for the big bucks to get to the right politicians and influence legislation without actually tipping the hand as to the real purpose of the expenditure and it was all wrapped up in the protective shell of "we're defending the 2nd Amendment", regardless of the fact the 2nd Amendment isn't going anywhere, isn't really at risk, or really need such questionable defense. The way the NRA and others try to present their case reminds of the sort of tactics used to sell basically unneeded products: there wasn't a need for a "restless leg syndrome" medication until some drug company decide to create a demand by, essentially, creating a heretofore non-existent condition into order to dupe people prone to idle foot tapping into believe they were suffering from a dire medical condition. What is need is to take a step back from the gun lobby rhetoric and, when faced with questions about gun related issues, ask "Who is really, actually, benefiting from the lack of controls: public safety or the bank accounts of the manufacturers and sellers?"...
<O>

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

You want to prevent me from buying a gun, change the Constitution.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I'm not at all trying to take a cheap shot at you or attack you, but this surprises me coming from a European. Its the type of stuff you hear here in the USA. However, there are people that continually push for these stricter laws and seem to be blind to the fact that they are not working. The strictest gun laws in the country are in Chicago...



And again, like you say, the crimes there are committed by the illegal guns...guns don't kill, people do. It's such a common sense concept that seems to be constantly overlooked to the point where it appears to be blatantly ignored. I'm a gun enthusiast, yeah...but I should not be made a victim by the government I support. I should not be made a target for criminals who wish to do me or my family harm.




I just want to call attention to this. You're absolutely right.

To be honest, I have taken several years to completely u-turn over the issue, 10 or 15 years ago I was probably sounding exactly like you would expect a German to sound on this issue. Statistics are one reason, fundamental changes of my views on state, and growing anger about the Zeitgeist, are two others. More pragmatical: its better to have a weapon and not needing it, than to need a weapon but having none. I am only against a too loose sales and permissions policy, and a general gun cult. There should be a checkup of biography, and mandatory training, but a general right to own a weapon as well. Automatic weapons, MGs, MPs, ARs however should have no place in public sales, I think, as should so called cop killer ammunition and other special bad stuff. They are not needed neither for hunting, nor self-defence, nor sports precision shooting. Leave the tools of war to were they belong - the warriors protecting their country/society against foreign aggressors.

[eddie]

Wow, we have had the wrong ideas about what happened in Vegas yesterday! This tragedy isn't about those who were gunned down, its not about those who are still in the hospital, facing multiple surgeries, fighting for their lives, this isn't about the fact that those who had been shot for no reason that their blood still lies on the pavement, this isn't about those families whose lives have been shattered by this senseless shooting,this isn't about showing sympathy or compassion for the victims, we've got it all wrong! We should turn our attention to the REAL victims of this tragedy, THE gun owners of America! What the hell were we thinking!?! If that's all these big bad arse gun owners can think about at a time like this, that's beyond pathetic! That's just self centered BS, that's all. If seeing those lifeless bodies of innocent people lying there doesn't move you to sympathy or compassion, if it just moves you to want to protect your guns, then I have a message

[Mr Quatro]

Stop holding it all in eddie and tell us what you really think

[August]

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

Stop holding it all in eddie and tell us what you really think

I think the moderators need to send him a message.