J. Stiglitz: The American Dream has become a myth

Skybird · 10-02-12, 06:21 PM

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-858906.html

Quote:

Stiglitz: In the last decades, income and wealth disparity have grown dramatically in this country. Let me give you an example: In 2011, the six heirs to the Walmart empire commanded wealth of almost $70 billion, which is equivalent to the wealth of the entire bottom 30 percent of US society.

SPIEGEL: The US has always thought of itself as a land of opportunity where people can go from rags to riches. What has become of the American dream?

Stiglitz: This belief is still powerful, but the American dream has become a myth. The life chances of a young US citizen are more dependent on the income and education of his parents than in any other advanced industrial country for which there is data. The belief in the American dream is reinforced by anecdotes, by dramatic examples of individuals who have made it from the bottom to the top -- but what matters most are an individual's life chances. The belief in the American dream is not supported by the data.

I sometimes think Stiglitz is a good diagnostic. But with his recipes for healing that he prescribes, I often found myself having problems with.

Cybermat47 · 10-02-12, 06:24 PM

Oh dear.
Well, I don't like to brag or anything, but it looks like Australia's becoming the 'Land of Oppurtunity'.

Oh dear.

Oberon · 10-02-12, 06:32 PM

Well...it IS called a 'dream', and not everyones dreams come true. In fact, it's a pretty rare event.
Honestly though, compared to other nations, Americans, even those at the lower end of the scale, still have it damn good. To an Afghani, Somalian or Mexican, America is still the place of 'The American Dream', even a Harlem slum would be (just about) better than a house in Kabul, and your chances of being killed on the way to the shops are marginally less in Harlem...only marginally though.

It's population shift, people will always look for somewhere that is better than where they are, be it inside their own country or, if they are able to, outside of their country.

After all, how many people seek asylum from the US?

eddie · 10-02-12, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

After all, how many people seek asylum from the US?

Just 1, Assange!

JU_88 · 10-02-12, 06:43 PM

"The life chances of a young US citizen are more dependent on the income and education of his parents than in any other advanced industrial country for which there is data"

What data? I really dont see how anyone can messure that with any degree of accuracy..

NeonSamurai · 10-02-12, 06:51 PM

Pretty simple actually, you can do it from tax return data. Look at what the parents made, then look at what their kids make. With census data and other stuff you can build a pretty decent picture of a family's socioeconomic status.

Anyhow I don't think the American dream was ever true to be frank. More a mythology that is effective in keeping the lower classes working, by convincing them if they work hard enough they can make it. Problem is almost all of them are very hard working (many I know personally often work 3 jobs or more 12-14 hour days, 7 days a week). We like to think that those people on the bottom deserve their fate, they are lazy freeloaders and don't try hard enough. Nothing could be further from the truth in most cases, they just don't have any chance and never did.

Sailor Steve · 10-02-12, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

After all, how many people seek asylum from the US?

Back in the Cold War days, I heard someone pretty much finish an argument with the simple statement "America is the only country I know of that builds walls to keep people out."

Yours is quite good too. Thanks.

AVGWarhawk · 10-02-12, 06:48 PM

Not every American share the same dream. To some, having a 4 slice toaster is living the dream. I guess the article is under the assumption that everyone has the dream of home ownership or something of that nature. It is not entirely true. My one coworker has no desire to own a home. Riches are not always a dream.

JU_88 · 10-02-12, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

Pretty simple actually, you can do it from tax return data. Look at what the parents made, then look at what their kids make. With census data and other stuff you can build a pretty decent picture of a family's socioeconomic status..

True, but doesnt that just prove that those who had parents with more money received a better education? Isnt that pretty much a just a cycle you'd expect?
Also there are many successful entrepeneurs in America, its not like having a masters and getting into someone else club is the only way up.

Platapus · 04-01-13, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Not every American share the same dream.

Before we can discuss whether the American Dream is or ain't a myth, we need to understand what that term really means.

I always liked this quote as it, to me, represents the American Dream

Quote:

The right to regulate the use of wealth in the public interest is universally admitted. Let us admit also the right to regulate the terms and conditions of labor, which is the chief element of wealth, directly in the interest of the common good.

The fundamental thing to do for every man is to give him a chance to reach a place in which he will make the greatest possible contribution to the public welfare. Understand what I say there. Give him a chance, not push him up if he will not be pushed. Help any man who stumbles; if he lies down, it is a poor job to try to carry him; but if he is a worthy man, try your best to see that he gets a chance to show the worth that is in him.

-- some old dead guy

Takeda Shingen · 10-02-12, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

After all, how many people seek asylum from the US?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Back in the Cold War days, I heard someone pretty much finish an argument with the simple statement "America is the only country I know of that builds walls to keep people out."

Yes and yes.

the_tyrant · 10-02-12, 09:33 PM

I would say that the big rags to riches situation is not the norm.

Every day, there are people succeeding in a rags to riches story, in every field and industry. However, the "American Dream" is simply because at the time, there is a better chance of a rags to riches transformation in the United States.

However, I personally do not associate rags to riches with the US specifically, I associate it with the discovery of a "new frontier"

The new world offers more opportunities, simply because it is new. I would say that the "American dream" started off with Cortez and Columbus, they started the "rags to riches" trend in the new world.

it started with the Conquerors and explorers, than it went to the pioneers and settlers, than it became the industrialists, and now, the rags to riches stories occur in the IT industry.

The rags to riches stories are more likely to happen in a breakthrough, a new frontier. America was once the new frontier, than many subsequent breakthroughs happened in the US.

The "rags to riches" stories mostly happened in the US, because it was the "new frontier" in most of its history. Than, many subsequent breakthroughs occured in the united states.

this is the classic mis-interpretation of a relationsip. The breakthroughs happened in the US, thus you were more likely to "strike it rich". But you were likely to strike it rich because of the breakthrough developments, not because there is something interent about the United States that makes it more like for a poor man to suddenly strike it rich.

Rags to riches stories are most likely to happen when new trends and breakthroughs appear, there is no geographical relationship. In fact, there has been many success stories within the last few years in Somalia of all places. Pennyless fishermen who took up piracy ended up as millionares. That is the classical "american success story", they took a new emerging trend, ran with it, and got rich. Geography had nothing to do with it.

soopaman2 · 10-02-12, 10:12 PM

I am a rags to riches story.

I am not a millionare, but I own my house,2 cars, 2 cats, a dog, and a woman who tolerates me. My pets and my wife is all the wealth I need, the rest is all just nice to have.

The dream is there, but it is fleeting, becoming harder to hold onto that dream, and harder for future paupers to do the same.

Oberon · 10-02-12, 10:22 PM

I think one of the hardest things to do as a human being is to be satisfied with what you have...it's something that as a race we have refused to do over thousands of years...and thankfully so otherwise we'd still be huddled in caves...but it's a double-edged sword, the drive to have a better life because what a better life is, is different to every single person. To someone in California it might be buying a new car, to someone in Addis Ababa it might be clean water, both mean the same thing to that person and yet in a rational mindset, one is quite clearly a much greater need for survival than the other.
When you throw society into the mix, then it gets even worse, the same media that is used to bring us pictures of those worse off than us, also brings us things like 'Celebrity cribs' or even just pictures of someones new computer setup. We look at screenshots of people running a graphics intensive game on full graphics settings and think "Man, I wish I had a rig that could do that", unlike that person in Addis Ababa, we are much more aware of what we don't have, than we are of what we do. Of course, there are exceptions, and they are mostly those who have built what they have from scratch, working up that ladder, like Soopaman, however if the opportunity came for advancement, they would not pass it by...and I don't blame them.
The problem comes when peoples drive leaves them up the ladder further than they can cope with being, and then they find themselves run ragged trying to cope, and stress pulls in, family life suffers and they die of a heart attack before they are fifty.
Finding that balance between personal happiness and personal advancement is, I think, one of the keys to a happy life.

Winning the lottery helps too....

Catfish · 10-03-12, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soopaman2

[...] I am not a millionare, but I own my house,2 cars, 2 cats, a dog, and a woman who tolerates me. [...]

Hahaa that sound familiar minus one cat and one dog

Honestly i think this all one needs, and good health -

10-02-12, 06:24 PM	#2
Cybermat47 Willing Webfooted Beast Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Australia Posts: 5,408 Downloads: 300 Uploads: 23	Oh dear. Well, I don't like to brag or anything, but it looks like Australia's becoming the 'Land of Oppurtunity'. Oh dear. __________________ Historical TWoS Gameplay Guide: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2572620 Historical FotRSU Gameplay Guide: https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho....php?p=2713394

10-02-12, 06:51 PM	#6
NeonSamurai Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Socialist Republic of Kanadia Posts: 3,044 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Pretty simple actually, you can do it from tax return data. Look at what the parents made, then look at what their kids make. With census data and other stuff you can build a pretty decent picture of a family's socioeconomic status. Anyhow I don't think the American dream was ever true to be frank. More a mythology that is effective in keeping the lower classes working, by convincing them if they work hard enough they can make it. Problem is almost all of them are very hard working (many I know personally often work 3 jobs or more 12-14 hour days, 7 days a week). We like to think that those people on the bottom deserve their fate, they are lazy freeloaders and don't try hard enough. Nothing could be further from the truth in most cases, they just don't have any chance and never did. __________________ SH3 Newbie Guide Links and other helpfull stuff

10-02-12, 09:33 PM	#12
the_tyrant Admiral Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 2,272 Downloads: 58 Uploads: 0	I would say that the big rags to riches situation is not the norm. Every day, there are people succeeding in a rags to riches story, in every field and industry. However, the "American Dream" is simply because at the time, there is a better chance of a rags to riches transformation in the United States. However, I personally do not associate rags to riches with the US specifically, I associate it with the discovery of a "new frontier" The new world offers more opportunities, simply because it is new. I would say that the "American dream" started off with Cortez and Columbus, they started the "rags to riches" trend in the new world. it started with the Conquerors and explorers, than it went to the pioneers and settlers, than it became the industrialists, and now, the rags to riches stories occur in the IT industry. The rags to riches stories are more likely to happen in a breakthrough, a new frontier. America was once the new frontier, than many subsequent breakthroughs happened in the US. The "rags to riches" stories mostly happened in the US, because it was the "new frontier" in most of its history. Than, many subsequent breakthroughs occured in the united states. this is the classic mis-interpretation of a relationsip. The breakthroughs happened in the US, thus you were more likely to "strike it rich". But you were likely to strike it rich because of the breakthrough developments, not because there is something interent about the United States that makes it more like for a poor man to suddenly strike it rich. Rags to riches stories are most likely to happen when new trends and breakthroughs appear, there is no geographical relationship. In fact, there has been many success stories within the last few years in Somalia of all places. Pennyless fishermen who took up piracy ended up as millionares. That is the classical "american success story", they took a new emerging trend, ran with it, and got rich. Geography had nothing to do with it. __________________ My own open source project on Sourceforge OTP.net KGB grade encryption for the rest of us

10-02-12, 10:12 PM	#13
soopaman2 Der Alte Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 3,316 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	I am a rags to riches story. I am not a millionare, but I own my house,2 cars, 2 cats, a dog, and a woman who tolerates me. My pets and my wife is all the wealth I need, the rest is all just nice to have. The dream is there, but it is fleeting, becoming harder to hold onto that dream, and harder for future paupers to do the same. __________________ If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. -Winston Churchill- The most fascinating man in the world.

10-02-12, 06:32 PM	#3
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Well...it IS called a 'dream', and not everyones dreams come true. In fact, it's a pretty rare event. Honestly though, compared to other nations, Americans, even those at the lower end of the scale, still have it damn good. To an Afghani, Somalian or Mexican, America is still the place of 'The American Dream', even a Harlem slum would be (just about) better than a house in Kabul, and your chances of being killed on the way to the shops are marginally less in Harlem...only marginally though. It's population shift, people will always look for somewhere that is better than where they are, be it inside their own country or, if they are able to, outside of their country. After all, how many people seek asylum from the US?

10-02-12, 06:43 PM	#5
JU_88 Silent Hunter Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: UK Posts: 3,803 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	*"The life chances of a young US citizen are more dependent on the income and education of his parents than in any other advanced industrial country for which there is data"* What data? I really dont see how anyone can messure that with any degree of accuracy..

10-02-12, 06:48 PM	#8
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,266 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Not every American share the same dream. To some, having a 4 slice toaster is living the dream. I guess the article is under the assumption that everyone has the dream of home ownership or something of that nature. It is not entirely true. My one coworker has no desire to own a home. Riches are not always a dream.

10-02-12, 10:22 PM	#14
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	I think one of the hardest things to do as a human being is to be satisfied with what you have...it's something that as a race we have refused to do over thousands of years...and thankfully so otherwise we'd still be huddled in caves...but it's a double-edged sword, the drive to have a better life because what a better life is, is different to every single person. To someone in California it might be buying a new car, to someone in Addis Ababa it might be clean water, both mean the same thing to that person and yet in a rational mindset, one is quite clearly a much greater need for survival than the other. When you throw society into the mix, then it gets even worse, the same media that is used to bring us pictures of those worse off than us, also brings us things like 'Celebrity cribs' or even just pictures of someones new computer setup. We look at screenshots of people running a graphics intensive game on full graphics settings and think "Man, I wish I had a rig that could do that", unlike that person in Addis Ababa, we are much more aware of what we don't have, than we are of what we do. Of course, there are exceptions, and they are mostly those who have built what they have from scratch, working up that ladder, like Soopaman, however if the opportunity came for advancement, they would not pass it by...and I don't blame them. The problem comes when peoples drive leaves them up the ladder further than they can cope with being, and then they find themselves run ragged trying to cope, and stress pulls in, family life suffers and they die of a heart attack before they are fifty. Finding that balance between personal happiness and personal advancement is, I think, one of the keys to a happy life. Winning the lottery helps too....