German court bans circumcision

[CaptainMattJ.]

Circumcision of females IS mutilation. Cutting off a clitoris is incredibly painful and unethical. it permanently disables that aspect of the female and causes noticeable disfiguration and disables the role of the clitoris. This is the most widely practiced Female circumcision, and its usually not in sanitary conditions or performed by trained medical personnel.

Male Circumcision has been thoroughly and repeatedly studied for signs of decreased performance or any medical problems with cutting off the foreskin, and its been proven that no such problems exist. Average length, sensitivity, size, and functions are relatively the same between non-circumsized and circumsized men. The only possible problems arise when it is done incorrectly, which isnt a problem with trained medical personnel. Circumcision also has been used as medical relief from problems such as phimosis.

i agree with MH, you use harsh language like "mutilation" to prove a false point about how circumcisions disfigure a Man and cause health problems when, if done correctly, it does not. I also take offense at you comparing Male and Female circumcision so freely.

Now, whether or not cutting off the foreskin of a possibly non-consenting infant is ethical is the only real topic that can be debated, as whether or not it mutilates Men has been proven many times to be inaccurate. AFAIK Adult male circumcision is more harmful (yet still hardly mutilation) because the Penis is fully grown. Men have reported that their Penis had decreased sensitivity and swelling after Adult circumcisions, but more research is needed.

Im leaning towards the ban of child circumcision for religious and or cosmetic reasons because the infant/toddler doesnt know what the procedure is for, and cant make an educated decision on whether or not he would really want it.

a known critic of Islam and Turkish rejection of integration in Germany, and a profound sociologist and publicist, she is author of several books on the matter. She fled from her family and is an apostate. She accuses Germans of shying away from the confrontation with Islam

Thats the german Hirsi Ali isn't it, though she got rumbled for inventing her research rather than inventing her life story like Ali did.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Again, please try to actually contribute to the discussion.

Which part of "is it?" did you not understand...

I asked a question earlier in this thread: are you for or against purely cosmetic circumcision of young girls, for reasons of tradition, culture and religion? Why or why not?

I'm not aware of such tradition....but you would have to ask the women about it if they would mind.

[Gargamel]

Anybody who calls the circumcision of a 1 week old traumatizing is an idiot. Name your first memory. Is it from less than 2 years old? Doubt it.

I know for a fact that I would much rather be snipped at birth than now. You have no memory of it! There is NO lasting traumaitization!

Why don't we outlaw baptism due to the chance of drowning while we're at it??

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by Skybird

That you wish for the third time now that Germany skips this law, and that you even demand it and threaten with those Jewish lobby groups in the US (last time I mentioned them it was denied that they even exist...), does not mean that it will happen so easily, or at all. chances are 50:50 that it will hold on n ational court levels, and what the European cpouret says, I do not predict - the EU recently decided that it wants to form a tough front against female circumcision.

But you live in a country (US, I assume) that even seriously argues that scientology is no commerce company selling slavery, but seriously considers it to be a religion, giving it full religious priviliges, tax evasion, and immunity from laws. So who do you demand to take that sende rof the message serious? The US govenrment has repeatedly demanded ermany and other Eiuroppean nations to recognise scientology as a relgion, and look where it led: we have not, and even have it under close observation by the federal police and the office fore the proteciton of the constitution. As a result, scientology since some years runs dry in Germany, and that is good so.

The same should be done with a campaign to ban religiously motivated physical violence.

It was the second level of the German legal system that gave the sentence today, and it is not binding for all courts in Germany, but it will serve as a precedence that will be considered and taken into account at other courts when such cases gets negotiated. Muslim and Jewish groups threaten to go to the highets European court to defend their precious little hobby of violence against kids. Le thtem. That is the same EU that has released an official proposal that nations should (and some have already) make criticism of religions a punishable crime by declaring all criticism of religion a discrimination. I am certain that man people in this thread love that. Religion cannot defend its claims by facts, arguments and sane reason, so it must be saved from getting put into question - that is the logic bewind it.

That is so pitiful.

Hi,

firstly I'm not saying that I wish Germany would drop this law (although I do), I am saying that once this arrives in Merkel's in-tray, I'm betting that it's going to be squashed.

secondly, I am not demanding anything, and I am most certainly not threatening you with anything. I am not in a position to make threats since I have no influence with these groups. I am simply saying what I think will happen once the story comes out.

You say that chances are 50:50 that it will hold at the national courts; I think the chances are much lower than that. So if you wish to make a private gentleman's wager with me, at even odds, I will be glad to accept

As for my location, you are wrong, but in any case, it is irrelevant here.

The salient point in this case is that circumcision of newborn males after one week is extremely important in Judaism.

All Jews do this, even the most atheistic ones (and there are many who are atheists), even those who eat pork (and there are quite a few, and not just for salami either). To not circumcise your male child is to signify your intention to abandon Judaism.

Now, you may or may not be right that circumcision is a barbaric practice or whatever. We surely agree that the ill consequences of circumcision are vanishingly minor.

The important thing is this: Germany is AGAIN outlawing the practice of Judaism.

This is not a message that Germany wants to make. Believe me, I mean Germany well, and Germany just cannot be the one to decide this. It will work out badly for Germany.

I generally agree with your efforts to fight the forces of unreason, but you have to pick your battles. Let France, Norway, or better still Israel, be the first land to decide circumcision of infant males is wrong, and let them provoke the debate within Judaism and Islam about the value of this practice. But for Germany to start this debate is deeply unwise, I think.

ciao!

[Catfish]

It depends on the tools used ..

[Safe-Keeper]

Anybody who calls the circumcision of a 1 week old traumatizing is an idiot. Name your first memory. Is it from less than 2 years old? Doubt it.

I'll let Skybird back up his own statements, but I'll just say this: trauma is in no way dependent on memory. If a baby is abused or suffers from neglect, he or she probably won't be able to remember it later on, but the effects may stay with him or her for a long time still. Skybird can probably tell you more about this, and explain it better than I can.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Gargamel

Anybody who calls the circumcision of a 1 week old traumatizing is an idiot. Name your first memory. Is it from less than 2 years old? Doubt it.

Muslims in germany do it at several years of age, and without injection. If you understand Germanb, read the article by Kelec I linked. Also, circumcision includes girls. And that is traumatising in almost every case.

If you lobby against female circumcision, whiochz is en vogue in Europe, you have no excuse to allow it for babies or for boys of several years.

What needs to be done now is to prevent circumcision tourism. That could be done by checks in regular school tests that are already run for vaccination and regular medical examinations. Parents of branded cattle, sorry, parents of boys and girls, should be brought to court and serve penalty time for severe physical abuse and gross mistreatment of wards. We enforce prison verdicts against parents boycotting school visits of their children for religious reasons. We do the same for parents arranging gang rapes, commercial child abuse, or failing in their parental duties. We should do the same for gential mutilations.

Religion means that adults do to children what had been done to them when they were children themselves. So there is only one solution: stop parents abusing children now.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

[...]
I'll just say this: trauma is in no way dependent on memory. If a baby is abused or suffers from neglect, he or she probably won't be able to remember it later on, but the effects may stay with him or her for a long time still. [...].

^ This.

Also, why shouldn't you select your religion you want to believe in yourself, when you are grown up, or at least, say, 16 ?

I will invent a new religion:
Everyone of my followers has to get his right leg sawed off, at the age of 2. Anyone can convert later, but only at the age of 2 or after the age of 20, if he wishes to, i just doubt there will be so much convertites.

Maybe taking out the brain will be an even better method to guarantee the faith of my followers.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ This.

Also, why shouldn't you select your religion you want to believe in yourself, when you are grown up, or at least, say, 16 ?

I will invent a new religion:
Everyone of my followers has to get his right leg sawed off, at the age of 2. Anyone can convert later, but only at the age of 2 or after the age of 20, if he wishes to, i just doubt there will be so much convertites.

Maybe taking out the brain will be an even better method to guarantee the faith of my followers.

Well, I often said that all religions practice circumcision - right in the middle between the temples.

Well Skybird has taken the biscuit there, checking people to see if they are circumcised.
No one expected the Spanish Inquisition.

[MH]

This thread is geting wiredly traumatic but thanx you all for your care...it means a alot.

[Skybird]

http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_...l_effects.html

Dr Janet Menage on Circumcision and Psychological Harm.

She gets quoted by the article of Necla Kelec that I linked earlier in German.

Also, this book, I just ehared of it before and had excerpts from it some years ago, so I do not know it in full, but the pieces I read were iumpressive and disillusionising:

Circumcison the hidden trauma, by Ronald Goldman PhD

The book scores over 4.5 stars in the shop.

Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma is the first intensive exploration of the unrecognized psychological and social effects of this American cultural practice. The book has been endorsed by dozens of professionals in the fields of psychology, psychiatry, child development, pediatrics, obstetrics, childbirth education, sociology, and anthropology.
Plain facts and recent research results revealed in the book conflict with popular beliefs and raise serious questions. Goldman's application of psychological and social research coherently explains both the tenacity of circumcision and the contradictory information and beliefs about it. He discusses the potential adverse effects of circumcision not only on infants, men, and sexuality, but also on mother-child relationships, male-female relationships, and societal traits and problems.
The social analysis is provocative, but it is the exploration of the deeply personal effects of circumcision on individuals that is most compelling. We learn how some men discover their feelings about circumcision, why men do not generally talk about them, and why this is changing. The book illustrates how specific male behaviors can be connected to circumcision, even though a man may be unaware of the connection. The text is supported with clinical reports, interviews, surveys, illustrations, and thorough documentation.
Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma identifies an overlooked source of early pain and simultaneously points us in the direction of both healing and preventing this pain. It is of particular interest to parents and children's advocates; men who seek to explore their sexuality and deepen self-awareness; women who want to understand men better; childbirth educators and allied workers; and mental health, medical, and academic professionals. The book has wide appeal because it is not just about circumcision and the critical importance of proper infant care. More generally, it is about trusting our instincts, questioning some of our cultural values and assumptions, and reflecting on who we are and who we can be as individuals and as a society.

I know from the past that Goldman is seen as kind of an niche-expert on the matter of traumatization by genital mutilation. He heads an international organisation against circumcision, I think.

You can read him in an interview where he finds some plain words for what circumcision is: http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/baltimore.htm

Circumcision is overwhelmingly painful and traumatic. No anesthetic has been proven safe and effective in preventing this pain. Sometimes, the infant does not cry because of withdrawal into traumatic shock. Circumcision often results in behavioral changes and disrupted mother-child bonding, and there are risks as with any surgery.

Crippling and distorting sexuality and the energy it represents, maybe for destroying a source for rebellion to claimed ídeologic authorities in religion. It is probably not for no reason that sexuality is so much under attack in all three desert dogmas.

[Skybird]

And this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Montagu_Resolution

The Ashley Montagu Resolution refers to the petition to the World Court to end the genital modification and mutilation of children worldwide.
Endorsement of the petition also includes the 1989 Universal Declaration on Circumcision, Excision, and Incision which holds that medically unnecessary surgical circumcisions, excisions and incisions on male and female genitals constitute an act of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment within the terms of Article 5 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
The original endorsers include Nobel Laureate in Physiology and Medicine Francis Crick and NOCIRC founder Marilyn Milos. The petition has also been signed by at least two Nobel Prize winners and Jonas Salk.

Full text of that resolution from here:
http://www.montagunocircpetition.org/
http://montagunocircpetition.org/univ_declaration.pg

Universal Declaration on Circumcision, Excision, and Incision

WHEREAS, the General Assembly of the United Nations on December 10, 1948 adopted and proclaimed the UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS; and

WHEREAS, said Declaration affirms to "strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance...;"WHEREAS, Article 2 of said Declaration affirms that "Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status;" and
WHEREAS, Article 5 of said Declaration affirmst that: "NO ONE SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO TORTURE OR TO CRUEL, INHUMAN OR DEGRADING TREATMENT OR PUNISHMENT;" and


WHEREAS, the practice of medically unnecessary surgical circumcisions, excisions and incisions on male and female genitalia that are conducted:

1. without anesthesia, inflicts incalculable pain and human suffering, constitutes and act of TORTURE within the terms of Article 5 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; and
2. with anesthesia, constitutes and "act of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" within the terms of Article 5 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; and

WHEREAS, other forms of male and female genital mutilation that are conducted as a matter of social and religious custom, e.g. as in "ritual rites of passage," constitute acts of "TORTURE (AND) CRUEL, INHUMAN OR DEGRADING TREATMENT OR PUNISHMENT" within the language of Article 5 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights; and
WHEREAS, the above violations of Articles 2 and 5 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights frequently involves helpless newborns and adolescents—religious and social customs notwithstanding;

The First International Symposium on Circumcision:

1. Calls upon all persons and institutions to engage in "progressive measures" to end the practice of torture, cruelty, inhuman and degrading treatment that is inherent in circumcisions and other forms of male and female genital mutilation that are conducted as a matter of social-cultural and religious custom and which are de facto violations ofArticles 2 and 5 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights; and
2. Calls upon all humane nations to pass legislation prohibiting the practice of torture, cruelty, inhuman and degrading treatment that is inherent in circumcisions and other forms of male and female genital mutilation that are conducted as a matter of social-cultural and religious custom which are de facto violations of Articles 2 and 5 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights; and
3. Calls upon all humane nations to petition the INTERNATIONAL COURT OF THE HAGUE to formally render an advisory opinion and judgement that the practice of medically unnecessary surgical circumcisions, with or without anesthesia; and other forms of male and female genital mutilation that are conducted as a matter of social-cultural and religious custom, e.g. in "ritual rites of passage" constitute de facto acts of violation ofArticle 5 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights which specifically states:

"NO ONE SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO TORTURE OR TO CRUEL, INHUMAN OR DEGRADING TREATMENT OR PUNISHMENT."

[MH]

Right... OK we are in the copy paste Internet bull stage....just look for something to paste that contradict your claims.
Better yet talk to all the secular people about how they feel about it..secular for preventing your suspicion of bias.
Make them look hard at their dick and tell you how they feel about it...ask some of their more experienced women which one they might prefer.

Its about fighting religion nothing more...as much heretic unbeliever as i am i can't agree with your vision of pluralism by wiping out traditions and cultural heritages in pursuit of some sort of tyrannic hegemony...
Male circumcision does not affect your rights does not hurt anyone and the "victims" have no regrets so stop all this mantra about child abuse.

"The First International Symposium on Circumcision:"
Thats gettin silly...