Violent video games blamed for Virginia Tech slayings

[STEED]

Originally Posted by HunterICX

Ban videogames?

fine! but ban MOVIES FIRST

You forgot the TV and the radio and books. Are what the heck ban everything. Time to cut the grass, wait a minute that makes me angry.

[GSpector]

Originally Posted by Heibges

This goes back to WWII where the army discovered that, in an infantry unit, only 15% to 20% of the infantryman in the unit (meaning not counting cooks and supply clerks, but only guys with rifles) actually took aim and fired at the enemy. It seems that in the 1940's young American boys were much more afraid of killing someone than they were of being killed themselves.

If I am not mistaken, it was Richard Bong that had shot down a record number of Aircraft in WWII (awarded CMOH), before he actually found out that he was actually killing pilots. For some reason, he just kept thinking that he just shot down the planes but the pilots would return.

After finding out this information, he was unfit to fly because he was shaken up so bad with grief. He later became a flight instructor then a Test Pilot for Lockheed. Died in a P-80 test flight after ejecting shortly after take off.

[GlobalExplorer]

GSpector, that story sounds a bit exaggerated. Otherwise Richard Bong must have been quite a simple simon, which I don't believe.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

Kids go to their schools and kill everyone because they don't want to live anymore. Not because they have played the wrong game.

That is wrong, as a matter of fact. Some facts from psychotherapy: most suicide attempts are meant as sending a signal, a desperate call for help. Most candidates that survive are actually thankful for having been saved. Another fact: amok runs are often conducted by people (if they are not mentally ill in a psychiatric understanding, for example be psychotic) who want to penaluize others, who want to teach others a lecture for misunderstandin g themslves or doing themselves injustice, as they perceive it. The explanation attempt of "people go amok because they want to die" is to short-reaching, and wrong. The intention is another one, but includes the willingness (sometimes deriving from an irrational feeling of "I am God/superman and noone can stop me") to get killed in the attempt to carry out the intention.

From what is known about the amok shooter in virginia, he suffered from an obviously very severe personality disorder. Frightening that such people can get legal acess to firearms so easily, like I would buy a piece of butter in a store.

Of course games often deliver inspiration for how they will go on about their killings. But then they shouldn't be allowed to watch the news either!

Call it TV and movies. As I said, the Western culture is dominated by american influence, and that makes it a culture with a strong love for explicit illustrations of violance and brutality.

I don't know the exact figures but in a typical modern country there are already millions of people playing computer games, mostly violent ones. In a couple of years, there will be only a certain fraction of people who don't do it.

That is scary, isn't it?

Actually I think video games are good to get rid of aggression, and they improve a lot of skills.

A lot of skills? For example? See what I wrote about findings in related examinations on page one of this thread. And on the part where you say they help to get rid of aggression: I agree, they can help. but only when you are a healthy personality yourself. See what I wrote before about vulnerability theories and factor that help to stabilize or destabilize your character.

I wonder how many crimes have never been done because somebody could channel their boredom and aggression into playing a game, or watching a movie?

I also wonder how many crimes have been committed because a violant scene from a game or movie gave the attacker the final push needed to get it going, and how many crimes try to copy patterns and actions that had been observed in films and games before.

[micky1up]

sorry this killer dosent look like the pro typical gamer for one hes to clean and if we really want to go to town about forms of media and effects on killing im sure the bible has plenty to answer for

[GlobalExplorer]

Skybird, I already said that I believe that video games, films, and other forms of escapism are preventing more crimes than they cause (an opinion that is hard to prove), and all I could do would be to repeat this.

And while I have read some intelligent stuff from you here and elsewhere, I refuse to discuss if your posts always go over two pages and try to cover too many different directions, like the connection to what you call "american" culture, and which I don't think was brought up in a appropriate manner.

So keep it a bit more focussed would you?

[Ostfriese]

Originally Posted by micky1up

sorry this killer dosent look like the pro typical gamer for one hes to clean and if we really want to go to town about forms of media and effects on killing im sure the bible has plenty to answer for

But video games are an easy answer to a very difficult question. Blame the games (the movies! black coats!), so you don't have to deal with the real problems Cho Seung-hui had, and with the problem that so many noticed that he was more than just a strange guy, but failed to do just anything.

By blaming games you offer a seemingly logical solution and you don't have to stir up uncomfortable topics.

[GSpector]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

GSpector, that story sounds a bit exaggerated. Otherwise Richard Bong must have been quite a simple simon, which I don't believe.

"Bong described combat flying as fun and a great game that made life interesting."
Source: http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_bong.html

"It was at Hamilton that Bong first raised the ire and the admiration of Major General George C. Kenney, commanding General of the Fourth Air Force. The field's location resulted in some aerial antics by Bong, such as "looping the loop" around the center span of the Golden Gate Bridge in his P-38, and waving to stenographers in office buildings as he flew along Market Street. But more serious was his blowing clean wash off a clothesline in Oakland. That was the last straw for Kenney, who chewed him out and told him, "Monday morning you check this address out in Oakland and if the woman has any washing to be hung out on the line, you do it for her. Then you hang around being useful - mowing the lawn or something - and when the clothes are dry, take them off the line and bring them into the house. And don't drop any of them on the ground or you will have to wash them all over again. I want this woman to think we are good for something else besides annoying people. Now get out of here before I get mad and change my mind. That's all!" ..... National Aviation Hall of Fame"
Source: http://usfighter.tripod.com/bong.htm

The day after his 40th kill, Major Richard Bong was standing on the Airfield of Mindoro Air Base with other pilots when he saw a P-38 shot down a Zero. What made him realize what was really happening was when he noticed the Zero pilot jump from the plane and never opened the chute. It was at that moment that he realized it was not a game and he remembered all 40 Kills to his record. He never flew in combat since.
Source: Medal of Honor by Dark Horse, issue 1.

On August 6, 1945 (the day the Enola Gay dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima) Dick Bong was killed when the P-80 he was testing stalled on takeoff and he bailed out at low altitude. His body, partially wrapped in the shrouds of his parachute, was found 100 feet from the plane's jet engine. On 8 August 1945 he was burried in the Poplar cemetary, Poplar, Wisconsin.
Source: http://usfighter.tripod.com/bong.htm

[Heibges]

Originally Posted by GSpector

If I am not mistaken, it was Richard Bong that had shot down a record number of Aircraft in WWII (awarded CMOH), before he actually found out that he was actually killing pilots. For some reason, he just kept thinking that he just shot down the planes but the pilots would return.

After finding out this information, he was unfit to fly because he was shaken up so bad with grief. He later became a flight instructor then a Test Pilot for Lockheed. Died in a P-80 test flight after ejecting shortly after take off.

If that story is true it is very interesting. I think Richard Bong gets little press, just because his name is Richard Bong.

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

By blaming games you offer a seemingly logical solution and you don't have to stir up uncomfortable topics.

I think that's called overgeneralization, and it always gives cheap answers to difficult problems

And yes, if that story about Bong is true, he must have been some sort of guy like Forest Gump. But, who cares, he can still have been a damn fine pilot ..

[Heibges]

Originally Posted by GSpector

"Bong described combat flying as fun and a great game that made life interesting."
Source: http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_bong.html

"It was at Hamilton that Bong first raised the ire and the admiration of Major General George C. Kenney, commanding General of the Fourth Air Force. The field's location resulted in some aerial antics by Bong, such as "looping the loop" around the center span of the Golden Gate Bridge in his P-38, and waving to stenographers in office buildings as he flew along Market Street. But more serious was his blowing clean wash off a clothesline in Oakland. That was the last straw for Kenney, who chewed him out and told him, "Monday morning you check this address out in Oakland and if the woman has any washing to be hung out on the line, you do it for her. Then you hang around being useful - mowing the lawn or something - and when the clothes are dry, take them off the line and bring them into the house. And don't drop any of them on the ground or you will have to wash them all over again. I want this woman to think we are good for something else besides annoying people. Now get out of here before I get mad and change my mind. That's all!" ..... National Aviation Hall of Fame"
Source: http://usfighter.tripod.com/bong.htm

The day after his 40th kill, Major Richard Bong was standing on the Airfield of Mindoro Air Base with other pilots when he saw a P-38 shot down a Zero. What made him realize what was really happening was when he noticed the Zero pilot jump from the plane and never opened the chute. It was at that moment that he realized it was not a game and he remembered all 40 Kills to his record. He never flew in combat since.
Source: Medal of Honor by Dark Horse, issue 1.

On August 6, 1945 (the day the Enola Gay dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima) Dick Bong was killed when the P-80 he was testing stalled on takeoff and he bailed out at low altitude. His body, partially wrapped in the shrouds of his parachute, was found 100 feet from the plane's jet engine. On 8 August 1945 he was burried in the Poplar cemetary, Poplar, Wisconsin.
Source: http://usfighter.tripod.com/bong.htm

I think what they mean is that seeing the Zero shot down from that perspective really brought it home to Bong. As tankers, we were taught to think of shooting at another tank as shooting at a piece of equipment not at the three men inside.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

Skybird, I already said that I believe that video games, films, and other forms of escapism are preventing more crimes than they cause (an opinion that is hard to prove), and all I could do would be to repeat this.

And while I have read some intelligent stuff from you here and elsewhere, I refuse to discuss if your posts always go over two pages and try to cover too many different directions, like the connection to what you call "american" culture, and which I don't think was brought up in a appropriate manner.

So keep it a bit more focussed would you?

It is focussed. But it is unreasonable to isolate games from the cultural setting in which they pop up. You NEED to look at the whole culture. I said earlier that those people saying that games do not cause violance are right and wrong at the same time, you remember? Games today are a greater business than movie business (!), they have become a major part of contemporary culture, no matter if I or others like that or not. - I just objected to your opinion of violant media things, or games, preventing crimes exclusively, and said why I do think that: by pointing out that it works the other way as well. This right to state a different opinion you must grant me as long as I found it by arguments and do not become personally offending.

[Ostfriese]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

I think that's called overgeneralization, and it always gives cheap answers to difficult problems

Sure there are always easy answers, but why doing copley analysis if many people are pleased with the easy answer Look at our beloved German politicians, after Erfurt and Emsdetten. Did anyone care about the real problems of those hot-wired brains? Of course not. All we got is 'ban the games, everything will be allright'.

Wem sag ich das eigentlich?

[micky1up]

Originally Posted by Heibges

I totally agree that is fully the parents' responsibility.

One thing you just admit is that the military would not use these videogames to desensitize its soldiers to violence if it wasn't effective.

This goes back to WWII where the army discovered that, in an infantry unit, only 15% to 20% of the infantryman in the unit (meaning not counting cooks and supply clerks, but only guys with rifles) actually took aim and fired at the enemy. It seems that in the 1940's young American boys were much more afraid of killing someone than they were of being killed themselves.

yes but desensitizing and turning someone into a mass killer of innocents are two completely different things

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

Sure there are always easy answers, but why doing copley analysis if many people are pleased with the easy answer Look at our beloved German politicians, after Erfurt and Emsdetten. Did anyone care about the real problems of those hot-wired brains? Of course not. All we got is 'ban the games, everything will be allright'.

Wem sag ich das eigentlich?

What is really provoking me is that these people (i.e. our politicians) are convinced they are doing the right thing - when in fact they are distracting from the real problems and insulting you / me / millions of others if they speak about the infamous "Killerspiele" - does that meann we are killers or what?