What is your expectations on SH4 ? #1 SH4 player - Page 4

03-18-07, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faamecanic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Shipshape, I don't think patches are limited to SH4 or Ubisoft. Every game I have bought since and including Aces of the Deep has gotten things fixed with patches. I know, and many of you also know, with all games, the publisher sets a deadline and the devs have to meet it. Sometimes the deadline is pushed back, as was the case with SH3. There are never cases where the devs of a game finish early and play pool the last three weeks before the deadline

And it's business as usual for the game to be sent to replication and then the devs keep right on working to finish, improve, and polish it, resulting in a patch on release day.

I won't suggest players ignore legitimate glitches with the game and I think as long as people appear relatively calm in their discussions, they should express their feelings. Post your findings in the bug thread, the devs read it.

Neal and others.....

Not that Im trying to flame here... but I think the reason more and more games are shipping these days half finished is because we ACCEPT the fact that its "ok as long as they patch". And this applies to more than just UBISOFT. EASports is HORRIBLE for releasing half finished games (ie bugs that have carried over through 2 or 3 Madden years, NFL Head coach...)

I can honestly say that if it wasnt for all the EXCELENT modders here...SH3 would have died a quick death on my HDD due to Ubi never FIXING what was blatantly broke in SH3, even after patch 1.4b. I got bored after my first patrol, and disgusted when my Type XXI that I saved up for turned out to be a piece of junk (battery bug, sonar bug...to name two). If it wasnt for GWX re-igniting my passion for SH3...I would have never played past 1 patrol (again THANKS GWX guys...you ROCK)

Now with that said...I sure hope SH4 dosent have a bug fest from day one. Because if we dont buy SH4...what other new subsim is there? Will I buy SH4...of course.... only because the fun factor outweighs the bugs, at least for now.

I have to agree with Faamecanic. PC games these days are being released buggier and more unfinished than ever, with promises to fix them later, because most players will buy the games no matter what. There is one group in this forum that says we are lucky to get any SH4 at all. I partially agree with this thinking. But, I cannot totally agree, because if the publishers of SH4 know that players will buy SH4 no matter how buggy it's released, then that only encourages them to release more and more buggy games later. There should be limits to what we as the paying customers will put up with regarding the purchase unfinished, buggy games. If we buy buggy, half-finished games and tell everyone else to do the same, then it only encourages and rewards the game publishers to release more and more broken, unfinished games. I'm sure that the SH4 development team cares deeply about releasing the best, bug free SH4 that they could. But it's probably the bean counters at Ubisoft publishing that forces an early, unfinished release of their games. Whatever happens with SH4, let's not blame the developers. With all that being said, if they release the SDK's for SH3 and SH4, I have no problems with these two games being unfinished or buggy.

geetrue · 03-18-07, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nvdrifter

Whatever happens with SH4, let's not blame the developers. With all that being said, if they release the SDK's for SH3 and SH4, I have no problems with these two games being unfinished or buggy.

They owe us that much ... SDK would be a welcome site ...
the numbers game is hard to understand for those who love
the sub sim experience.

Have merci' Ubi ... did more people buy Swat III and Generals Zero Hour,
because Sierra and EA released the SDK for those games?

It does not hurt game sales for modders to get hold of something they love ...

It increases sales ...

GSpector · 03-18-07, 02:47 AM

Publishers of PC Software have the biggest advantage over Console games. Your Hard Drive and possibly your modem.

It is an accepted practice (though not by us) in the industry to release a game good enough to at least play knowing that it can be updated at a later date.

Now if the game is buggy but has a huge following like SH3, a patch will be released, If not, don't hold your breath because it will not be worth their time & money to patch software that no one plays or complains about despite the sales. If there are bugs, let them know you have an interest in the game/Sim and if enough people show a real interest, a patch will come out.

Console games can not be patched so when they go Gold, they are as good as Gold because they have to be perfect even if it's a bad game, it will play without bugs.

What else can be said, Good or bad, the industry exploits the advantage of update-able software.

Ark · 03-18-07, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSpector

Console games can not be patched so when they go Gold, they are as good as Gold because they have to be perfect even if it's a bad game, it will play without bugs.

There are patches for XBOX 360 games released all the time online. There were patches for some of the original XBOX games as well.

In fact, R6:Vegas on the 360 just had a patch not that long ago.

RedTerex · 03-18-07, 03:05 AM

I think its the marketing dept that places its 'strict time directives' that constantly push the Devs to have 'oversights' in the game, Marketing Depts and their budgets rule, Salesmen on commissions follow and Devs try to reach the goal posts as they move further away.

I just accept bugs now as part and parcel of the package, Its always the case now of hoping that the bugs are slight and dont spoil gameplay..too much and how quick it can be patched.

GSpector · 03-18-07, 03:06 AM

Then I stand almost corrected since I take it XBox 360's have a Modem in them. I did after all state that a Modem was one of the advantages that the industry tries to exploit

and M$ built an exploitable console

And I know that M$ seems to be working very hard to merge the two platforms.

Ark · 03-18-07, 03:19 AM

I always hear people talk about wishing the Devs could spend more time with games so they are as close to "perfect" as possible, but I don't think many quite understand exactly how much time that could add.

Take a look at some of the development teams that do all their development and production in-house and it quickly becomes evident that "a little extra time", is hardly "little" at all. ED (Eagle Dynamics) case in point. They are currently working on an expansion for Lock On: Modern Air Combat called Lock On: Black Shark. ED is doing all of their development/production in-house and does not abide by any time-constraints. The expansion was originally set to be released in March. March 2006. They have decided to spend "a little extra time" to work out any kinks and add some new features here and there......now the suspected release date is "Hopefully 2007".

I don't know about all of you, but sure I would love games that needed as few patches as possible.....but at the expense of waiting possibly 2 extra years? No thanks.

Ark · 03-18-07, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSpector

Then I stand almost corrected since I take it XBox 360's have a Modem in them. I did after all state that a Modem was one of the advantages that the industry tries to exploit

and M$ built an exploitable console

And I know that M$ seems to be working very hard to merge the two platforms.

Sony's console has online capabilites as does Nintendo's. So did the original XBOX as well as the Sony PS2. One of the biggest complaints about the PS2 by many people was it's limited amount of online gaming. It's hardly just a MS thing. It's not like MS is "the big bad wolf out to get us". The money is in online gaming.

MS is a business just like all others, and they, like all others, need revenue to function.

Shipshape · 03-18-07, 06:31 AM

Hello again!!

The intention with the tread I started was not to dismiss the new Silent Hunter 4. My intention was to start a debate about the fact that without you all competent users out there who make modds on freeware basis to the SH4 and are experiencend players will be disappointed. Would you buy a car or a 42” flat screen tv knowing that it will not work as intended? How about if your new car suddenly “died” when you used the AC and opened a window at the same time. Or your new flat screen functionality depended on the fact that you could get local support, on freeware basis adjusting it to its intended functionality. The software industry has made us used to the fact that there will be upgrades to make the thing work. Just look at Windows who every month launches security and other uppdates. What have all this to do with SH4 then?

Well I, just as the rest of the subsim community, was looking forward to the new subsim. But when you see all the eunthusiasm in the treads I can’t help thinking back on the history from earlier releases. Imagine that all the competent modders who mostly on freeware basis makes the simulation experience as god as it gets, and it will be very good in SH4, would stop. That they for some reason decided that they wouldn't share theire experiences and work. What would that result in? The real heroes of the software industry is this people, eunthusiasts, who we all depend on. And what is anoying is that the corporate management on UBISOFT etc know this and then let us, the users make the product work. The user has suddenly become the quality-, support-, and developmentdepartment. Without costs for the software development company.

SH4 is, and will be, a great simulator experience thanks to the subsim community. And I´am very glad that the subsim community works as well as it does, and of course an extra thanks to all of you at subsim.com who makes room for me too write this. The problem is do UBISOFT management recognize and contribute to those who make it work, e.g. subsim community etc? Reading youre posts make me think that short term financial reports is more important than deliver what they promised.

In the future, may bee its time to SH5!, and on the Webb you can read, “We will on the 16 of march start selling a brand new subsim that will be a very good simulation experience. In 5 to 6 months after release, when you the user without any cost for us, has finished for us.” What kind of market success would that bee?

I´am a big fan of simulators, it can bee Flight-, Ship-, Sub- or Trainsim, and the software industry all behave at the same way, depending on that there is a community that make it work. Hove long shall we accept this kind of business model? We wouldn't accept it when buying other things, a DVD-player, a book, a.... etc. Until we can influence the software industry we can find trust in the community, so keep up the good work all you modders out there.

Best regards Shipshape.

P.S:
The SH4 outdates earlier subsim,s

and is worth waiting for.

Payoff · 03-18-07, 06:42 AM

We get it. Now more screenshots please.

OneTinSoldier · 03-18-07, 07:22 AM

Hello Shipshape,

Thanks for your posts. I still have to argue with some of your points though. As Neal said...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I hear you, but it's been said many, many times. I don't know how it's going to change. When will we stop accepting it? I don't know.

You have to compare apples to apples. A Car, a Toaster, a TV, ect. is NOT Software.

Not only that, if my car was under warranty and it died when I turned on the AC, I would take it in and expect it to be fixed, at no charge to me. And those type of things happen with cars too. This might be hard to believe and be news to you, but cars aren't produced perfectly either! Same for toasters and tv's. If I get home with my new purchase and find it's defective, I take it back and exchange it for a new one, or I get a refund and get my money back. Has everyting you've ever bought been perfect or or something? You've never had any problem with any product you've purchased other than software? :hmm: Did you purchase SHIV thinking it would be perfect and bug free?

It comes down to individuals. An individual must decide whether he is fed up with defective products from a company enough to where he will no longer purchase from that company. If the company has left a bad taste in enough people's mouths, then it may add up to enough people that stop buying from that company to put them out of bussiness. That's what it boils down to. Tired of buggy software? Stop buying it! You send a message to companies with... your wallet. If you did not believe that SHIV would be perfect when it was released, and you wanted it to be perfect but bought it anyway, you just sent them a message that it's ok for them to sell(release) imperfect software.

As I said earlier I expect support from software companies. When I stop getting support in the way of fixes with patches then I will no longer support(purchase from) them.

As for your point about folks who fix stuff on a freeware basis your point is well taken. There were some broken items in SHIII that were fixed by guys and released them as free mods. Things that should have been fixed by the Ubi/Dev team. THAT is the type of thing that gives me pause and makes me wonder... should I be purchasing SHIV? :hmm:

Regards

Faamecanic · 03-18-07, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedTerex

I think its the marketing dept that places its 'strict time directives' that constantly push the Devs to have 'oversights' in the game, Marketing Depts and their budgets rule, Salesmen on commissions follow and Devs try to reach the goal posts as they move further away.

I just accept bugs now as part and parcel of the package, Its always the case now of hoping that the bugs are slight and dont spoil gameplay..too much and how quick it can be patched.

First..Im glad to see my comment was not taken as a flame... thanks guys.

Second...BINGO Red.... its like two opposite agendas. The Devs love what they do and want the bells and whistles in the game because its a challenge to them. Time tables set by the publishing company restrict that. Its a double edged sword.

I do not blame the devs for SH3 bugs and any possible SH4.... but I do feel the publishing company should allow the devs to at least fix what is wrong after release. But I do understand the publishers are limited by that allmighty bottom line.

PAW · 03-18-07, 08:41 AM

Lol, fire extinguishers on stand-by please indeed.

This forum has done nothing but berate this poor fellow and dismiss him as a fake, up until you practically forced him to post his game box and registration key.
If I was him, I wouldn't post a single picture for any of you.

If I were to have download the game illegally (and before you also launch off at me, I've got mine on pre-order and am waiting very impatiently for the 23rd) I would have been happy to have released some shots, but if all i would get is a telling off from the jealous people here and then kicked from the forum, i think i'd be better off just staying quiet about it.

Am most displeased with the negativity flying around at the moment when we should all be rejoicing that the time IS finally here.

To continue the debate however...
(and this has been adressed many times before so I think i'm just re-itterating the info)

The games developers for the majority of games DO spend alot of time testing and ironing out bugs.

However, because THEY created the game, THEY know how it should be played. They won't play it like the thousands (hopefully millions) of people who will buy it later and so they will miss several bugs. The Beta testers are supposed to help them with getting rid of bugs that they might not have spotted, however, these (and i appreciate that it is also hard work) lucky people are but a handful in number and not enough to get all of the bugs covered. Any bugs they do find then have to be fixed. These fixes can cause new bugs.

The only real way to get all the bugs ironed out IS to release the game to the paying public and await their response.
It is unfortunate that this occurs. Perhaps they could make a BOT to control the sub and log when faults occur, but again, these are coded by the dev team and so would only perform a few of the routines that they had thought of. What the dev team and publisher CAN do is make sure that patches are frequent and any major bugs that are released are stamped out as soon as possible so that those who pay full price for the game can get what they actually paid for, rather than waiting for the game price to drop and getting it with the majority of bugs already sorted.

I am hoping that the ARMA (armed assault) community will continue to be supported for some time. I mean, you should have seen the state of that game when it was first released. It was laugable. From what you have described to me, your list of bugs indicates that SH4 is already a FAR more finished product than ARMA and ARMA has been released for quite some time.

I bid you happy sailing and good luck shipshape. You're going to need it until more of us can get out in the pacific with you.

Gizzmoe · 03-18-07, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PAW

This forum has done nothing but berate this poor fellow and dismiss him as a fake, up until you practically forced him to post his game box and registration key.
If I was him, I wouldn't post a single picture for any of you.

Well, no-one here knew at first that SH4 would be released sooner than the 21st or 23nd in some countries, so the reaction here wasn´t surprising...

Antrodemus · 03-18-07, 08:45 AM

Ah, c'mon PAW... we did hold our hands-up and admit we were wrong, and nothing could be more galling than seeing someone (not in this case though) who's pirated the game, rubbing our noses in it when we might not see it for another week yet. People can get real tetchy around release-time for a game that's been hotly anticipated for years.

03-18-07, 02:47 AM	#48
GSpector Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 676 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	Publishers of PC Software have the biggest advantage over Console games. Your Hard Drive and possibly your modem. It is an accepted practice (though not by us) in the industry to release a game good enough to at least play knowing that it can be updated at a later date. Now if the game is buggy but has a huge following like SH3, a patch will be released, If not, don't hold your breath because it will not be worth their time & money to patch software that no one plays or complains about despite the sales. If there are bugs, let them know you have an interest in the game/Sim and if enough people show a real interest, a patch will come out. Console games can not be patched so when they go Gold, they are as good as Gold because they have to be perfect even if it's a bad game, it will play without bugs. What else can be said, Good or bad, the industry exploits the advantage of update-able software. __________________ Specter

03-18-07, 03:06 AM	#51
GSpector Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 676 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	Then I stand almost corrected since I take it XBox 360's have a Modem in them. I did after all state that a Modem was one of the advantages that the industry tries to exploit and M$ built an exploitable console And I know that M$ seems to be working very hard to merge the two platforms. __________________ Specter

03-18-07, 03:19 AM	#52
Ark Samurai Navy Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Fresno, CA. Posts: 581 Downloads: 95 Uploads: 0	I always hear people talk about wishing the Devs could spend more time with games so they are as close to "perfect" as possible, but I don't think many quite understand exactly how much time that could add. Take a look at some of the development teams that do all their development and production in-house and it quickly becomes evident that "a little extra time", is hardly "little" at all. ED (Eagle Dynamics) case in point. They are currently working on an expansion for Lock On: Modern Air Combat called Lock On: Black Shark. ED is doing all of their development/production in-house and does not abide by any time-constraints. The expansion was originally set to be released in March. March 2006. They have decided to spend "a little extra time" to work out any kinks and add some new features here and there......now the suspected release date is "Hopefully 2007". I don't know about all of you, but sure I would love games that needed as few patches as possible.....but at the expense of waiting possibly 2 extra years? No thanks. __________________ Ark -------------- Vista 64-bit SP1 Asus P6T Deluxe mobo Core i7 920 @ 3.8ghz 6GB G.Skill DDR3 1600 Evga GTX 285 SSC SB X-FI Fatality 640GB WD "Black" Dell 3007WFP-HC 30" LCD / Acer 23" H233H

03-18-07, 06:31 AM	#54
Shipshape Swabbie Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 8 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	SH4 will be a great experience. Hello again!! The intention with the tread I started was not to dismiss the new Silent Hunter 4. My intention was to start a debate about the fact that without you all competent users out there who make modds on freeware basis to the SH4 and are experiencend players will be disappointed. Would you buy a car or a 42” flat screen tv knowing that it will not work as intended? How about if your new car suddenly “died” when you used the AC and opened a window at the same time. Or your new flat screen functionality depended on the fact that you could get local support, on freeware basis adjusting it to its intended functionality. The software industry has made us used to the fact that there will be upgrades to make the thing work. Just look at Windows who every month launches security and other uppdates. What have all this to do with SH4 then? Well I, just as the rest of the subsim community, was looking forward to the new subsim. But when you see all the eunthusiasm in the treads I can’t help thinking back on the history from earlier releases. Imagine that all the competent modders who mostly on freeware basis makes the simulation experience as god as it gets, and it will be very good in SH4, would stop. That they for some reason decided that they wouldn't share theire experiences and work. What would that result in? The real heroes of the software industry is this people, eunthusiasts, who we all depend on. And what is anoying is that the corporate management on UBISOFT etc know this and then let us, the users make the product work. The user has suddenly become the quality-, support-, and developmentdepartment. Without costs for the software development company. SH4 is, and will be, a great simulator experience thanks to the subsim community. And I´am very glad that the subsim community works as well as it does, and of course an extra thanks to all of you at subsim.com who makes room for me too write this. The problem is do UBISOFT management recognize and contribute to those who make it work, e.g. subsim community etc? Reading youre posts make me think that short term financial reports is more important than deliver what they promised. In the future, may bee its time to SH5!, and on the Webb you can read, “We will on the 16 of march start selling a brand new subsim that will be a very good simulation experience. In 5 to 6 months after release, when you the user without any cost for us, has finished for us.” What kind of market success would that bee? I´am a big fan of simulators, it can bee Flight-, Ship-, Sub- or Trainsim, and the software industry all behave at the same way, depending on that there is a community that make it work. Hove long shall we accept this kind of business model? We wouldn't accept it when buying other things, a DVD-player, a book, a.... etc. Until we can influence the software industry we can find trust in the community, so keep up the good work all you modders out there. Best regards Shipshape. P.S: The SH4 outdates earlier subsim,s and is worth waiting for.

03-18-07, 06:42 AM	#55
Payoff Captain Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Nash Town, USA Posts: 525 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	We get it. Now more screenshots please. __________________ "Hit Shokaku class carrier with three out of six torpedos. Recieved 105 depth charges during three hour period. Heard four terrific explosions in the direction of target, two and one half hours after attack. Believe that baby sank!" Lieutenant Commander Herman Kossler USS Cavalla

03-18-07, 03:05 AM	#50
RedTerex Seaman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 34 Downloads: 69 Uploads: 0	I think its the marketing dept that places its 'strict time directives' that constantly push the Devs to have 'oversights' in the game, Marketing Depts and their budgets rule, Salesmen on commissions follow and Devs try to reach the goal posts as they move further away. I just accept bugs now as part and parcel of the package, Its always the case now of hoping that the bugs are slight and dont spoil gameplay..too much and how quick it can be patched.

03-18-07, 08:41 AM	#58
PAW Seaman Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 34 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 0	Lol, fire extinguishers on stand-by please indeed. This forum has done nothing but berate this poor fellow and dismiss him as a fake, up until you practically forced him to post his game box and registration key. If I was him, I wouldn't post a single picture for any of you. If I were to have download the game illegally (and before you also launch off at me, I've got mine on pre-order and am waiting very impatiently for the 23rd) I would have been happy to have released some shots, but if all i would get is a telling off from the jealous people here and then kicked from the forum, i think i'd be better off just staying quiet about it. Am most displeased with the negativity flying around at the moment when we should all be rejoicing that the time IS finally here. To continue the debate however... (and this has been adressed many times before so I think i'm just re-itterating the info) The games developers for the majority of games DO spend alot of time testing and ironing out bugs. However, because THEY created the game, THEY know how it should be played. They won't play it like the thousands (hopefully millions) of people who will buy it later and so they will miss several bugs. The Beta testers are supposed to help them with getting rid of bugs that they might not have spotted, however, these (and i appreciate that it is also hard work) lucky people are but a handful in number and not enough to get all of the bugs covered. Any bugs they do find then have to be fixed. These fixes can cause new bugs. The only real way to get all the bugs ironed out IS to release the game to the paying public and await their response. It is unfortunate that this occurs. Perhaps they could make a BOT to control the sub and log when faults occur, but again, these are coded by the dev team and so would only perform a few of the routines that they had thought of. What the dev team and publisher CAN do is make sure that patches are frequent and any major bugs that are released are stamped out as soon as possible so that those who pay full price for the game can get what they actually paid for, rather than waiting for the game price to drop and getting it with the majority of bugs already sorted. I am hoping that the ARMA (armed assault) community will continue to be supported for some time. I mean, you should have seen the state of that game when it was first released. It was laugable. From what you have described to me, your list of bugs indicates that SH4 is already a FAR more finished product than ARMA and ARMA has been released for quite some time. I bid you happy sailing and good luck shipshape. You're going to need it until more of us can get out in the pacific with you. Last edited by PAW; 03-18-07 at 09:01 AM.

03-18-07, 08:45 AM	#60
Antrodemus Torpedoman Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Scotland Posts: 117 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Ah, c'mon PAW... we did hold our hands-up and admit we were wrong, and nothing could be more galling than seeing someone (not in this case though) who's pirated the game, rubbing our noses in it when we might not see it for another week yet. People can get real tetchy around release-time for a game that's been hotly anticipated for years.