New Virginia SSNs

[Kapitan]

The akulas are similar size to the 688i and have similar displacement to the seawolf, about 62 men crew the submarine although a skelton crew of just 34 could crew it if needed.

Reason why they have so little crew is because they dont use the wests crew system of everyones got a boss bar the captain, ie theres 4 people looking after one moniter and 3 people looking after the shaft ect ect, its one mans job but they are all trained to do it if needed.

personaly why do you need three people to do the same job at the same time ? ones enough and when it goes wrong they can just ask a few others to join in.

When kursk went down she was over crewed 118 a SSGN like that of the russian navy can be crewed by a minimum of 97 people the standard sea going crew would be 107 but this was an exercise so they put a few extra weps techs on, although the Oscar II's can carry upto 180 people if pushed (130 comftably) theres just no need to do it its funds mainly.

[Kapitan]

Yet another thing:

The russians are trained by the british and its known world wide that we the british have the best submarine training regieme in the world countries such as india australia america pakistan south aftrica germany france poland russia italy greece all send thier potential captains through the perisher, and some of the crews also go through basic here in the UK.

[geetrue]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Yet another thing:

The russians are trained by the british and its known world wide that we the british have the best submarine training regieme in the world countries such as india australia america pakistan south aftrica germany france poland russia italy greece all send thier potential captains through the perisher, and some of the crews also go through basic here in the UK.

Sorry, Kapitan ... you have a lot of knowledge for someone I have never met, but your love for your country just got in the way of the truth. No way will I believe that the Russians are trained by the British ... unless you mean their spys relay information to the motherland of course.

I respect you otherwise however if that helps.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by fatty

Which is still not 100%. In a "newer boat" like the Project 677, which according to Haze Gray has a crew of 37, you'd have 8-11 men who really don't want to be there.

Your first link doesn't work.

Your second link is about dedovschina, which I'd presume to be less serious in an operating sub. Officers can close their eyes in the Army regarding the ongoings in their barracks at night, but on a warship, it is harder to pretend not to see.

In any case, the enlisted are (looking at Kursk's crew list) turbine operators, cooks and steering signalmen. Doubt they would seriously affect combat efficiency. In any case, enough enlisted do like the Navy enough to become michmen (there are more michmen than conscripts in modern Russian subs).

Great idea. I am not sure about the U.S., but here in Canada we have companies that submit bids and compete for projects whenever there's a ship to be overhauled or built. Is it the same in the U.S.? If so, how do you think implementing a strict budget would affect these competitions?

They just eliminated the last competition between Electric Boat and Newport News by forcing them to each build half of a Virginia.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Please dont knock the russian systems simply beceause if they had the american sonar screens then they would have the advantage and also filtering systems.

The range of the russian sonar systems on the akula I improved and akula II acctualy exceade in detection range compaired to the 688i, but the disadvantage comes with the screen the information is displayed on which cuts its detection range by about 1/3.

Wow, this must be the crappiest way to lose I ever heard of. Spend billions of rubles to fight the superior American electronic industry, finally manage to build a system with superior raw characteristics, and then lose because they refuse to change from SSAZ?

Anyone that played with DW for a few days quickly appreciates that sensitivity difference. What took the Russians so long? They just never thought of waterfalls until they read it in Red Storm Rising?

[ASWnut101]

They just eliminated the last competition between Electric Boat and Newport News by forcing them to each build half of a Virginia.

Not really. We've still got Bath Iron Works in Maine (I think that's where it is) and the Ingalls Yard in New Orleans, Louisiana.


EDIT: oops, I just saw that you were talking only about Electric Boat and Newport News

[fatty]

Sorry, here is a cache of the first link.

In the second, the last paragraph is what I wanted to draw your attention to:

All Russian men between the ages of 18 and 27 are required by law to serve in the 1.2 million-member military, but only about 9 percent typically are drafted. The rest avoid the feared conscription by signing up for college, being excused for health reasons - often falsified - or simply paying bribes.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by fatty

In the second, the last paragraph is what I wanted to draw your attention to:

All Russian men between the ages of 18 and 27 are required by law to serve in the 1.2 million-member military, but only about 9 percent typically are drafted. The rest avoid the feared conscription by signing up for college, being excused for health reasons - often falsified - or simply paying bribes.

As I understand it, they are mostly afraid of joining the Army, which is the pits - crap food, senior conscripts taking your food, forcing you to steal for them ... etc. You'd notice there are not that many praporschiks in the Army - maybe 1 or 2 per company AFAIK.

I wouldn't do away with conscription if I were the Russians, at least not yet. They just don't have the hard cash to do so. Instead of trying to professionalize regiment by regiment, the Navy's de facto move of professionalizing the NCO leadership is probably more appropriate for Russia.

If I must use conscript sergeants, give them a year instead of six months of training, then extend their service by six months. They'd have learnt more, and with a full year under their belt they'd join the ranks as a "senior" member, so they'd be better able to maintain control.

But better to just work on making more praporshchiks, enough so that there's at least 1 per platoon.

[geetrue]

I hope you two (fatty & Kazuaki Shimazaki II) understand that the Russian submarine force is treated vastly different than the regular military. Just as our own US submarine forces get higher pay and other preffered treats, so do our counterparts.

Not only do they get higher pay, but the dependants themselves get better housing and preffered treatment in the military.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by geetrue

I hope you two (fatty & Kazuaki Shimazaki II) understand that the Russian submarine force is treated vastly different than the regular military. Just as our own US submarine forces get higher pay and other preffered treats, so do our counterparts.

Not only do they get higher pay, but the dependants themselves get better housing and preffered treatment in the military.

I understand that. That's why I'm "isolating" his story to the Army. But the Navy does have its own problems - every so often you hear a guy stealing the palladium from his sub hoping to sell it.

I'm aware in Soviet times, they got special sub pay (15% more, then 25% over that for nuke sub). I'm not sure what they are getting now.

As for the better housing part, they are probably getting the better half of what housing is available, but against that they are living in such places as Gazhievo and Vidaeyvo or worse, Petropavlovsk. I must say I can't see even the best house being too cozy there.

BTW, the US submarine force is not "our" to me. I know sometimes my posts might read that way, but I'm no American.

Originally Posted by geetrue

Sorry, Kapitan ... you have a lot of knowledge for someone I have never met, but your love for your country just got in the way of the truth. No way will I believe that the Russians are trained by the British ... unless you mean their spys relay information to the motherland of course.

I respect you otherwise however if that helps.

1) Kapitan is nominally British AFAIK. He just has a Russian grandfather.

2) I wouldn't put it past the Russians in the post Cold War era to have sent one or two of their Captains to Perisher in the name of international cooperation. However, it would not be the majority - using the occasional participant in another nation's training problem is not a good measure.

3) In some ways, the Russian Navy is closer to the British Navy than the US Navy - for example their emphasis on specializations.

[SmokinTep]

I work on US Submarine for a living and have been on both Seawolf and Virginia. Comparing the two is no contest. Seawolf and Connecticut were designed to be the ultimate sub hunter. Seawolf played a little game with a couple of 688's. The 688's were trying to track her. Seawolf was actually about 5000 yds from these 2 boats and they could not pick her up. Travelling at flank speed on Seawolf is totally different than a 688. On the Seawolf, you hear nothing, the 688 groans to go that fast.
I have been on Virginia a couple of times. She is very modern, not sure I like the automated Steering and Diving controls, but time will tell. She is deffinately designed for Seals as the escape trunks are very different than a 688.
Glad they went back to the vertical launch tubes. The Torpedo Room on Seawolf is actually 2 decks, 8 tubes and is a hydraulic leaking mess especially if you are on the lower level. Seawolf is just about the same width as a SSBN.
Shame is that Seawolf and Connecticut, both slated to move to Bremerton/Bangor Washington may become nothing but parts boats for the USS Jimmy Carter SSN-23

[Kapitan]

Since 1996 some 86 russian captains of 1st rank only have completed the perisher of that only 26 acctualy passed it. (offical russian figures)

In recent months we have found thanks to navy news (UK) that russian naval rating have begun to start training in our facilitys (linton lesrae should be able to tell you the exact same thing).

And its my stepfather who is russian and im born in britain but have a duel citizen ship.

[geetrue]

Excuse me for false thoughts then Kaptain ... anyone who loves submarines is okay with me. I have been on two British submarines ... One was diesel and the other one was a boomer.

The boomer was very clean, she tied up next to us in Flordia at Cape Kennedy and while standing topside watch I was able to speak to the other enlisted man about his life and times onboard. He indicated that USN sailors were paid more and that the British were more gung ho than we were, but that he really liked his job.

I went onboard after my watch and it was very spacious in the missile compartment ... compared to our's. The diesel boat was having a rum call when I went aboard, but believe me they do not share their rations.

But back to the best Navy in the world, the good ole USA and the Seawolf and Virginia class boats. I sure would like to meet you SmokinTep ...

Thank you for your observations, boy no telling who your going to meet in here, uh.

I respect the men who build and maintain submarines as much as I do the ones who sail them. I'm sure Electric Boat will listen to the men that have to live and fight for a living, to improve the design in peace time is not as hurried as war, but after the next war we might not have a shipyard left to come home to.

We use to feel pretty smug living on boomers till one day back in 1968 we figured out that we had about 15 minutes left before Russia could back track any missile launch and fire a nuclear war head our way. So subcompac came up with a plan to launch 6 or 7 missiles, one minute apart and boogie down the road to launch the rest. We could only do about 25kts top speed on the USS Ethan Allen surfaced or submerged (fully loaded) and we were so noisy even a deaf sonarman could pick us up at that speed.

I don't know about the Russians, but a nuclear warhead on a subroc or Mk45 wire guided torpedo can wipe out anything within fifty miles. If I were young enough to to do it all over again I would go for the Seawolf and dream of beaching her when we ran out of food, cause she's never going to get caught.

[DanCanovas]

i've enjoyed reading this thread

[Kapitan]

Everything has weakness some where in time the seawolf will show hers, (probably when she is decomissioned).

Like the alfa for example a very good boat fast deep diving but sonar capibility is crud not to mention the fact they are deaf above 8 knots, and dont have a towed array so again detection range is limited.

Seawolf i can only immagine that her weakness could be something to do with the engineering side of things but thats my view and wont be found out for another 50 years.

Seawolf is a very good boat best in the world for a nuke i will say that much.