[REL] Open Horizons II

[gap]

Originally Posted by vdr1981

Okay, contact colors are the definitive evidence that there are actual neutral ships within Allied convoys.
Way to many IMO...


Good news. If I got you correctly, neutral ships wrongly assigned to convoys only belong to some nations. Other nationalities are represented within convoys by their "free" counterparts.
That is only true for this convoy, on next encounter situation will probably be very different depending of current game's date...


That's an obvious oversight. A Free Panamian roster should be setup (that's easily done)..
I fail to understand why there's so many regular Panamian freighters in allied Atlantic convoys even in first campaign (1939/1940) if you guys have set campaign to spawn FreePanama ships within allied convoys? Shouldn't they bee ignored by the game in this case?

It is obvious that you and Trev know much more about campaign files then I do and the purpose of my previous post is to help you guys to determent the cause of the problem but that's the best i can do I'm afraid, especially in upcoming period...

I was aware of neutral ships in convoys for years but I looked at it as feature and just recently I discovered that this is actually unprecedented and unseen bug in previous SH titles...

I'm looking forward hopefully for upcoming solution because It's going to be really hard for me to find inspiration for further work on SH5 while game continues to spawn those "green ships" in such legitimate targets as large allied convoys...I'm afraid that these kind of issues can really trow me back in SH3/4 world once again .
All seems kind of pointless if game's gonna penalize me if I sink "wrong" ship during convoy engagement...

No worries Vecko, SH's convoy settings are quite flexible, and I am sure we can fix the inaccuracies you have spotted, though it can be a tedious work.

The little I know about campaign files, I know from Trevally. Now I will try and give you the details of how convoys are set in campaign, and hopefully Trevally will fill-in the missing details.

For each campaign, convoys are listed into GroupTypes.cfg. The composition of each convoy, is detailed GroupTypeDefs.cfg.

With Happy Times - convoy HX- for instance, we have a first section containing general information (see my notes below):

[HX_]
Role=1 ; I ignore what this setting means
Doctrine=0 ; can be either defensive (0) or offensive (1), the latter useful for taskforces
EscortPosition=1 ; should be the arrangement of escorts within the convoy, but I am not sure about that
EscortSpacing=900.000000 ; self explanatory
ConvoyRowSpacing=900.000000 ; self explanatory
ConvoyColSpacing=900.000000 ; self explanatory
Columns=0 ; self explanatory
IsWolfPack=false; self explanatory

The next sections are about convoy's combination. One section for each group of ships which may spawn together with the convoy. The settings of each section, specify certain characteristics shared within each group.

[HX_.EscortUnit 1]
Type=4 ; this group of ships must be composed of destroyers (type 4), as set in their cfg file. For a liste of possible types see data\Roster\Names.cfg
CountryName=British ; this group of ships must be composed  of units in the British roster. Within the limits imposed by the unit type/country combination, group's composition will be randomized every time the convoy will spawn
ExternalCargo=-1 ; type of external cargo carrried by the group. List of possible 3d freights found in data/Sea/CargoDef.cfg. -1 means no cargo.
InternalCargo=-1 ; type of internal cargo carried by the ships of this group. Can be either no cargo, oil, ammunition, or inert cargo
CrewRating=3 ; you know what is means!
Weapons=0 ; either early, mid or late war armaments. I am not sure wether weapons start/end dates set in ship eqp files are actually used and, if yes, how they interact with this setting
Sensors=0 ; either early, mid or late war sensors. Again, it is possible that this setting overseeds dates set in sns file
Tactics=0 ; I used to know the meaning of this setting, but I can't remember right now
Camouflage=0 ; either early, mid or late war camoufflage, painted on ships' AO map. As above, dates set in ships cfg file could be overseeded by this setting
Required=false ; I think this parameter sets wether the game must force this group of units into the convoy, rather than rolling the dices for deciding if each ship in the group will spawn or not (see settings below).
No=4 ; I can be wrong, but this must be the maximum number of ship within the group
SpawnProbability=100 ; This is the spawn probability of the ships of this group. Iam not sure wether it applies to the whole group or individually to each ship in the group, but I am inclined to the latter 
GroupLinkId=0 ; No idea here

; please scroll to the section [HX_.ConvoyUnit 1], for an optional setting not featured above. As for the rest, each section resambles the other.

[HX_.EscortUnit 2]
Type=4
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=3
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=2
SpawnProbability=80
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.EscortUnit 3]
Type=4
CountryName=Canadian
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=3
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=90
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.EscortUnit 4]
Type=1
CountryName=Canadian
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=3
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=2
SpawnProbability=20
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 1]
Type=102
Class=KLWarSupplies ; this setting is used when we want a group to feature only ships of a certain class, rather than randomizing among the ones of the same type
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=2
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=5
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 2]
Type=102
Class=KLWarSupplies
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=0
InternalCargo=0
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=6
SpawnProbability=20
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 3]
Type=101
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 4]
Type=102
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=4
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 5]
Type=102
CountryName=Canadian
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=4
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 6]
Type=101
CountryName=Panama
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 7]
Type=102
CountryName=Panama
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=3
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 8]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeBelgium
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=50
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 9]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeDenmark
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=50
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 10]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeFinland
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=20
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 11]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeFrench
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=2
SpawnProbability=80
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 12]
Type=101
CountryName=FreeGreece
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 13]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeGreece
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 14]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeGreece
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=40
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 15]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeNetherlands
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=20
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 16]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeNorway
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=20
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 17]
Type=102
CountryName=FreePoland
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=2
SpawnProbability=80
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 18]
Type=102
CountryName=FreePoland
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 19]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeSweden
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=10
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 20]
Type=101
CountryName=Brazil
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=20
GroupLinkId=0

Now that convoys are set, when and where will they spawn in campaign? There are many mission layers where convoys in GroupTypes.cfg can be set for spawning in campaign, but proper convoys usually are set in convoys.cfg. A search within the campaign folder with notepad++, will make sure that we are not missing any important convoy entry. For each convoy we have at least three sections. The first section is relative to the port of departure, and it can be shared by many convoys leaving from the same location. For convoy HX the port is Halifax:

[LanesGraph.Node 21]
Long=-7623029.000000
Lat=5349180.000000
Height=0.000000
IsFromSingleMis=false
Name=Halifax
Radius=2.000000
MaxSpeed=0.000000
RelatedSPRadius=20.000000
SpawnHeading=0.000000
Category=1
LayerOperation=0
RelatedMapLoc=
ShowOnMap=false
IsLocked=true

The second section links each convoy to its port of departure, as well as setting its start/end dates and cruising speed:

[LanesGraph.Node 21.NodeGroup 1]
Type=HX_
Name=HX
Country=British
Speed=9.000000
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231
ReportPosTime=2170
ReportPosProbability=60

The third section, sets for each convoy its destination, route (optional), and frequency. I suspect that, if need be, more than one sections of this type can be set for each convoy:

[LanesGraph.Node 21.NodeGroup 1.NGMission 1]
Name=Liverpool
ObjectiveType=0
TargetNode=Liverpool
PathNodes=
UsePath=false
CooldownMonths=0
CooldownDays=10.200000
CrtCooldownHours=12.000000
CooldownHours=1
Priority=0
RewardPoints=0
StartDate=19390916
EndDate=19451231

I wish I could help with detailed explainations on each setting in convoys.mis, but I am afraid I would mislead you. For sure I remember the cool down settings are important ones, and they determine convoy's frequency in campaign. For further details, I am sure our Trev will pop up at the right moment

[Trevally.]

Originally Posted by vdr1981

Okay, contact colors are the definitive evidence that there are actual neutral ships within Allied convoys.
Way to many IMO...


Good news. If I got you correctly, neutral ships wrongly assigned to convoys only belong to some nations. Other nationalities are represented within convoys by their "free" counterparts.
That is only true for this convoy, on next encounter situation will probably be very different depending of current game's date...


That's an obvious oversight. A Free Panamian roster should be setup (that's easily done)..
I fail to understand why there's so many regular Panamian freighters in allied Atlantic convoys even in first campaign (1939/1940) if you guys have set campaign to spawn FreePanama ships within allied convoys? Shouldn't they bee ignored by the game in this case?

It is obvious that you and Trev know much more about campaign files then I do and the purpose of my previous post is to help you guys to determent the cause of the problem but that's the best i can do I'm afraid, especially in upcoming period...

I was aware of neutral ships in convoys for years but I looked at it as feature and just recently I discovered that this is actually unprecedented and unseen bug in previous SH titles...

I'm looking forward hopefully for upcoming solution because It's going to be really hard for me to find inspiration for further work on SH5 while game continues to spawn those "green ships" in such legitimate targets as large allied convoys...I'm afraid that these kind of issues can really trow me back in SH3/4 world once again .
All seems kind of pointless if game's gonna penalize me if I sink "wrong" ship during convoy engagement...

Sorry if I am mistaken here, but was this not how it was. I am sure that I had read that neutral shipping did make up parts of convoys

BdU had rules for when a neutral target can be targeted and was not easy to know. Thus the decision to attack or not was part of a uboats dilemma.

If the result for a player attacking a ship they should not attack is a penalty, then this sounds ok to me.
I remember when I played this game that on occasion I would have to ensure that my solution was true and not risk a miss if it could then hit a "green" ship

Gap - I am wrong. i am not sure now as it was long ago when I was looking at this

[Trevally.]

If removing all neutral shipping from convoys are a must, then here is an easy way to do it.

This must be done on a campaign by campiagn basis.

Using a text editor - search the convoy file for all "insert nation here for the one you want to remove" and replace text with the nation that is required.
Just be sure to use a nation that has in its roster that class of ship.

or

as above search and set a command that when nation is found - replace text "SpawnProbability=100" to zero

[gap]

Originally Posted by Trevally.

Sorry if I am mistaken here, but was this not how it was. I am sure that I had read that neutral shipping did make up parts of convoys

BdU had rules for when a neutral target can be targeted and was not easy to know. Thus the decision to attack or not was part of a uboats dilemma.

If the result for a player attacking a ship they should not attack is a penalty, then this sounds ok to me.
I remember when I played this game that on occasion I would have to ensure that my solution was true and not risk a miss if it could then hit a "green" ship:

Hi Trev, what you are saying is sure, and it is part of the fun, but I think it applies especially to very early war engagement rules, and to shipping outside the convoy system. I can be wrong here, but I believe that quite early in the U-boot war doctrine, any ship sailing within Allied convoys was to be considered as "hostile", regardless of her nationality. Worth some extra research anyway. Suggestions and informed opinions very much appreciated.

[fitzcarraldo]

Originally Posted by gap

Hi Trev, what you are saying is sure, and it is part of the fun, but I think it applies especially to very early war engagement rules, and to shipping outside the convoy system. I can be wrong here, but I believe that quite early in the U-boot war doctrine, any ship sailing within Allied convoys was to be considered as "hostile", regardless of her nationality. Worth some extra research anyway. Suggestions and informed opinions very much appreciated.

Yes. Ships from neutral nations leased for transport in convoy were considered enemies and then legitime targets. Ships from my country - Argentina - neutral for most part of the war were destroyed by U boats because they work for allied transport. The question here is: you sink a neutral nation ship in a convoy - then an enemy working for the allies - and you will be penalized. That's not war "justice".

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo

[gap]

Originally Posted by fitzcarraldo

Yes. Ships from neutral nations leased for transport in convoy were considered enemies and then legitime targets. Ships from my country - Argentina - neutral for most part of the war were destroyed by U boats because they work for allied transport. The question here is: you sink a neutral nation ship in a convoy - then an enemy working for the allies - and you will be penalized. That's not war "justice".

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo

Thank you Fitz, but your country is not a good example. According to uboat.net, during the war only two Argentinian ships were lost and one damaged by U-boots. The three of them were unescorted, and the attacks -especially the last two- were rather accidental. Here are the full reports from the source I mentioned above (relevant quotes marked in bold):

At 21.12 hours on 27 May 1940, U-37 fired one G7a torpedo at the unescorted and neutral Uruguay (Master Antonio Garcia) about 160 miles west of Cape Villano and missed. Only noticing the neutral markings after firing, the U-boat then surfaced and stopped the ship with a shot across the bow. The Germans examined the papers but found no signature on the sailing order, unknown to them the ship had been bound for Antwerp but due to the German invasion of Belgium was ordered by radio message to Ireland. Oehrn found this suspicious and decided to sink the vessel in accordance with the prize rules, ordering the crew to abandon ship within 20 minutes. A German boarding party went aboard the Uruguay to place four scuttling charges which exploded at 21.48 hours. The sinking was hastened with six rounds from the deck gun.

The Argentinian crew abandoned ship in two lifeboats and the Germans reported that the men were not angry about the sinking and they even wished good luck to each other when leaving the area. The master and twelve crew members were picked up by the Spanish steam trawler Ramoncin and landed at Corunna, Spain. The other boat with 15 occupants was never found.

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/324.html

At 00.46 hours on 18 April 1942 the unescorted and neutral Victoria was hit on the port side between hold #1 and #2 by a stern torpedo from U-201 about 300 miles east of Cape Hatteras. The crew stopped the engines and sent a distress signal, but remained aboard as the ship was not settling. At 01.45 hours, the U-boat fired a G7e torpedo as coup de grâce which hit on the port side between the bridge and the after deck house and then surfaced. The commander had observed faint lights on the ship before the attack, but could not see the neutrality markings through the periscope and only noticed them after surfacing. He immediately reported his mistake to the BdU, was ordered to cease attack and left the area. The crew abandoned ship after the second hit in two lifeboats which were shortly thereafter separated by wind in the darkness.

The distress signal was picked up by USS Owl (AM 2) towing the oil barge YOG-38 to Bermuda. She arrived after 7 hours and inspected Victoria at dawn, lying on even keel with two large holes in her port side. She seemed to be salvageable so a boarding party of eight men was transferred to the tanker and they worked the whole day to start the diesel engines, but high seas prevented that an engineer needed aboard could be transferred during the afternoon. Consequently the men had to remain aboard the next night. At dawn on 19 April, the lifeboat of the chief officer was spotted by Empire Dryden which was just about to pick up the 21 men in it when USS Owl was sighted not far away and informed about the nearby boat. The minesweeper picked up the survivors and brought them back to their ship. Among them was the guarantee engineer of Fairbanks Morse, the company that had built the diesel engines of the tanker and with his help it was finally possible to restart the engines and proceed at seven knots at 17.00 hours. USS Swanson (DD 443) and USS Nicholson (DD 442) were sent from New York to assist and en route the latter picked up the remaining survivors from the lifeboat of the master at 16.00 hours on 19 April, transferring them back to their ship about 8 hours later. The next day, USS Owl was relieved by USS Sagamore (AT 20) and Victoria eventually reached New York on 21 April.

This incident kept many diplomats and lawyers busy for quite some time. Argentina lodged a strong protest against Germany and Italy after an investigation proved that Victoria had been torpedoed. On 17 June, the German government confirmed and regretted that this ship had been torpedoed in error by one of their U-boats, but only a few days later the Rio Tercero was sunk by U-202 and this led to demonstrations off the German Embassy in Buenos Aires. Germany acknowledged her responsibility, offered to pay reparations and gave assurances that no further attacks on Argentine vessel would be made. The salvage of Victoria was also brought before court as it was not clear if the crew voluntarily returned to their ship or not, but it proved to be impossible to clear the matter during wartime as the witnesses were scattered all over the world.

In the meantime, Victoria was repaired at New York and because it was not clear at that time who will pay for the costs of a half a million dollar the US War Shipping Administration (WSA) requisitioned the vessel on 24 July. She returned to service as Panamanian Culpepper on 31 July 1942. The tanker was converted to a barge in 1961.

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/1548.html

At 12.34 hours on 22 June 1942 the unescorted and neutral Rio Tercero was hit by one of three torpedoes from U-202 and sank slowly about 120 miles off New York. Linder reported that the ship displayed no neutrality markings and was recognized as Argentinian only after the attack when questioning the survivors.

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/1836.html

The case of Victoria's sinking is quite interesting: it demonstrates that any merchant ship bound for the British Islands, no matter her flag state, could be sunk in accordance with the prize rules. On the other hand, I am curious to know what information you have about Argentinian ships transporting goods for the Allies. Seen the close ties between 40's Argentina and Hitler's Germany, I find it quite unlikely.

[fitzcarraldo]

Thanks Gap for all the information.

I use the example only for illustrate the problem with neutral ships in convoys.

In SH3, using the Merchant Fleet mod, you have merchant ships of neutral nations in convoys and you can attack them, without penalization. This ships appear in the rosters of allies ships (so, they are "allies ships" for the game), but in game they don´t have flags, and in the hull they have a flag of the neutral nation.

Wonder - BTW - if the ships of MFM - and others of SH3 - could be installed in SH5, as I did in SH4.

Best regards.

Fitzcarraldo

[gap]

Originally Posted by fitzcarraldo

Thanks Gap for all the information.

I use the example only for illustrate the problem with neutral ships in convoys.

Yep, I got you mate. Your example exposed an important exception of the neutrality rule

Originally Posted by fitzcarraldo

In SH3, using the Merchant Fleet mod, you have merchant ships of neutral nations in convoys and you can attack them, without penalization. This ships appear in the rosters of allies ships (so, they are "allies ships" for the game), but in game they don´t have flags, and in the hull they have a flag of the neutral nation.

Wonder - BTW - if the ships of MFM - and others of SH3 - could be installed in SH5, as I did in SH4.

Best regards.

Fitzcarraldo

I know MFM. Porting its ships and all the amazing stuff coming with it is one of my day dreams! SHIII and IV ships can be imported into SH5 with some tweaks but, with iambecomelife's permission, it would be better converting them into GR2 units rather than importing them as dat files. A proper GR2 conversion, with all the goodies brong in game by the new format, requires quite a lot of work though.

[vdr1981]

Originally Posted by fitzcarraldo

In SH3, using the Merchant Fleet mod, you have merchant ships of neutral nations in convoys and you can attack them, without penalization. This ships appear in the rosters of allies ships (so, they are "allies ships" for the game), but in game they don´t have flags, and in the hull they have a flag of the neutral nation.

Of course and that's exactly what it should be...Any ship in allied convoy should be allied ship (Side=1) and NOT neutral (Side =0). That's the only logical and realistic way...
I'll repeat again my experience with three "green/neutral" Greek ships inside British protected convoy. The game gave me -3 rating points which is catastrophic because from that moment I could only say buy-buy to any future sub upgrades...

Originally Posted by gap

Yep, I got you mate. Your example exposed an important exception of the neutrality rule

Trevally gave us some advices but I don't know which files he was taking about.
Can you do something regarding this issue Gap so we can finally get over this issue?

[vdr1981]

An one more thing gap regarding your changes in DefSide.cfg file...Your work and knowledge about historical dates is really impressive but I don't think that you were aware of one fact when you created it. I've tried to explain this with Danish freighter example but I guess you didn't understand me well...

IF "Free nation" ship is spawned inside allied convoy outside date limit you've set in DefSide.cfg file, the game wont ignore her and threat it like it doesn't exist. It will spawn free nation ship but it will automatically assign her neutral status (Side=0).


This is also one of the main reasons of neutral ship appearance inside convoys and it is especially noticeable with free nations ships which have relatively short Side=1 date limit (like Free Denmark).

[SideEntry 75]		; //// D A N I S H  M E R C H A N T  F L E E T  A N D  N A V A L  F L O T I L L A  I N  E X I L E \\\\\ (Merchants,[few] Warships; Naval units only after 'Operation KNU' [19430829])
Country=FreeDenmark
Side=1
StartDate=19390930	; The Danish steam merchant 'Vendia' is stopped by U-3. She was sunk after an attempt by her crew to ram the U-boat. After this episode and before the invasion of Denmark by Nazi Germany (Operation Weserübung, 19400408), though Denmark was a neutral country, the Danish merchant fleet suffered 167 casualties due to attacks by German U-boats
EndDate=19400407	; Operation Weserübung: Germany invades Denmark; a puppet government is issued

Because GroupTypeDefs.cfg is identical for all campaigns, this means that free Denmark freighters will be spawned in allied convoys during entire war but after 1940/04/08 they will always be neutral (Side=0). Do you understand what I'm trying to say with my creepy English?

[gap]

Originally Posted by vdr1981

Any ship in allied convoy should be allied ship (Side=1) and NOT neutral (Side =0). That's the only logical and realistic way...

I lean towards your opinion, but I wouldn't advise being so drastic. War is chaos, and it is possible that some merchant navies fell in a gap of the war regulations, making their ships' sinking unadvisable for a short period since the beginning of their involvement in the Allied war effort. Should we find any of these exception to the rule "neutral ship in Allied convoys = valid target", a timely campaign radio message will make sure that we are not misleaded during our attacks.

Originally Posted by vdr1981

I'll repeat again my experience with three "green/neutral" Greek ships inside British protected convoy. The game gave me -3 rating points which is catastrophic because from that moment I could only say buy-buy to any future sub upgrades...

Buy buy, sub upgrades?
Are we talking about Silent Hunter Online?

Originally Posted by vdr1981

Trevally gave us some advices but I don't know which files he was taking about.
Can you do something regarding this issue Gap so we can finally get over this issue?

I think so, but I will still need advise and assistance by Trevally...

Originally Posted by vdr1981

An one more thing gap regarding your changes in DefSide.cfg file...Your work and knowledge about historical dates is really impressive but I don't think that you were aware of one fact when you created it. I've tried to explain this with Danish freighter example but I guess you didn't understand me well...

IF "Free nation" ship is spawned inside allied convoy outside date limit you've set in DefSide.cfg file, the game wont ignore her and threat it like it doesn't exist. It will spawn free nation ship but it will automatically assign her neutral status (Side=0).


This is also one of the main reasons of neutral ship appearance inside convoys and it is especially noticeable with free nations ships which have relatively short Side=1 date limit (like Free Denmark).

[SideEntry 75]		; //// D A N I S H  M E R C H A N T  F L E E T  A N D  N A V A L  F L O T I L L A  I N  E X I L E \\\\\ (Merchants,[few] Warships; Naval units only after 'Operation KNU' [19430829])
Country=FreeDenmark
Side=1
StartDate=19390930	; The Danish steam merchant 'Vendia' is stopped by U-3. She was sunk after an attempt by her crew to ram the U-boat. After this episode and before the invasion of Denmark by Nazi Germany (Operation Weserübung, 19400408), though Denmark was a neutral country, the Danish merchant fleet suffered 167 casualties due to attacks by German U-boats
EndDate=19400407	; Operation Weserübung: Germany invades Denmark; a puppet government is issued

Because GroupTypeDefs.cfg is identical for all campaigns, this means that free Denmark freighters will be spawned in allied convoys during entire war but after 1940/04/08 they will always be neutral (Side=0). Do you understand what I'm trying to say with my creepy English?

Yep, at this point what you are saying is obvious. We have three ways to address the problem:

- widening the timeframe that Free Nations are set as German enemies;
- altering GroupTypeDefs.cfg for each campaign so that the compositation by nation of the same convoy changes from a campaign to the other;
- playing with ship class appearance/disappearance dates in each nation's roster, so to make sure that some nations will only spawn within convoys when we need for them.

The best approach could be a combination of the three methods above, depending on the needs.

What do you think Trevally?

[gap]

Hi John,

talking about the SpawnProbability setting of each Escort/ConvoyUnit definition, do you happen to know if it is applied to the unit as a whole, or rather individually to each ship set in the Unit?

Let's say that we have an unit composed of 2 British corvettes, and we set their spawn probability to 50%. In the first case we would have a 50-50 probability of getting two corvettes or no corvette at all. But if the SpawnProbability is meant for each ship in the Unit, with the above setting we would have:

a 25% chance of no corvette;
a 50% chance of one corvette;
a 25% chance of two corvettes.

It makes a big difference

[vdr1981]

War is chaos, and it is possible that some merchant navies fell in a gap of the war regulations, making their ships' sinking unadvisable for a short period since the beginning of their involvement in the Allied war effort. Should we find any of these exception to the rule "neutral ship in Allied convoys = valid target", a timely campaign radio message will make sure that we are not misleaded during our attacks.

Occasional one or two neutral appearance would not be a problem at all but this issue is now much more "acute"...

Buy buy, sub upgrades?
Are we talking about Silent Hunter Online?
For the 10th time, rating points are very important unless you want to reach the end of the war with type VIIA...

- widening the timeframe that Free Nations are set as German enemies;
The easiest and the most effective solution IMO...


- altering GroupTypeDefs.cfg for each campaign so that the compositation by nation of the same convoy changes from a campaign to the other;
- playing with ship class appearance/disappearance dates in each nation's roster, so to make sure that some nations will only spawn within convoys when we need for them.
But these two could be much more time consuming and complicated and to be honest, I'm a little bit angry because we have to deal with this after all these years...

[gap]

Originally Posted by vdr1981

War is chaos, and it is possible that some merchant navies fell in a gap of the war regulations, making their ships' sinking unadvisable for a short period since the beginning of their involvement in the Allied war effort. Should we find any of these exception to the rule "neutral ship in Allied convoys = valid target", a timely campaign radio message will make sure that we are not misleaded during our attacks.

Occasional one or two neutral appearance would not be a problem at all but this issue is now much more "acute"...

I see. As I told you, I see no reason why -with some patience- we shouldn't be able solving the issue

Originally Posted by vdr1981

Buy buy, sub upgrades?
Are we talking about Silent Hunter Online?
For the 10th time, rating points are very important unless you want to reach the end of the war with type VIIA...

I know that. But as I read your previous post I got that you wanted to bribe the mechnanic at docks, and "buy" the upgrades that you are not given through reward points (due to your poor performance)

Originally Posted by vdr1981

- widening the timeframe that Free Nations are set as German enemies;
The easiest and the most effective solution IMO...

Possible, and this is the method I will use for a quick patch, but in some cases the other two methods might be more effective. Convoys composition by nation, number and types of escorts, ship armaments, crew ratings, etc, changed over the years. I can be wrong, but I think this complexity can be only achieved by having different versions of GroupTypeDefs.cfg for each campaign. On the other hand, getting rid of some duplicated nations when they are no longer needed (by anticipating the disappearance of all of the ships in their roster), may avoid confusion.

Originally Posted by vdr1981

- altering GroupTypeDefs.cfg for each campaign so that the compositation by nation of the same convoy changes from a campaign to the other;
- playing with ship class appearance/disappearance dates in each nation's roster, so to make sure that some nations will only spawn within convoys when we need for them.
But these two could be much more time consuming and complicated and to be honest, I'm a little bit angry because we have to deal with this after such a long time...

You shouldn't. Who are you angry with? With people like Trevally, me... and you, who used a lot of hours of their free time for making this game better? Who else is to be considered "liable" for this and other shortcomings and unwanted features we might find in our mods? We should rather be grateful to Trevally for his little jewel, and be ready facing any possible inaccuracy, if Trevally accepts the changes.

[Trevally.]

Hi everyone

Because GroupTypeDefs.cfg is identical for all campaigns, this means that free Denmark freighters will be spawned in allied convoys during entire war but after 1940/04/08 they will always be neutral (Side=0). Do you understand what I'm trying to say with my creepy English?

I am sorry, but this is not the case. I wish I had mad grouptypedef common with all campaign - it is not
At times when making ohii I felt overwhelmed with how much work was involved and so I cut a few corners now and again.
Just had a quick look and I think there may be 3 or 4 grouptypedef files within ohii. This will now result in more work for any repair/update, unless that update is a simple text edit.

a timely campaign radio message will make sure that we are not misleaded during our attacks.

I feel this is a great idea and should be done even if the issue is fixed with grouptypedef. Simple case of firing of a message (red) for each event in the defside.

Yep, at this point what you are saying is obvious. We have three ways to address the problem:

- widening the timeframe that Free Nations are set as German enemies;
- altering GroupTypeDefs.cfg for each campaign so that the compositation by nation of the same convoy changes from a campaign to the other;
- playing with ship class appearance/disappearance dates in each nation's roster, so to make sure that some nations will only spawn within convoys when we need for them.

The best approach could be a combination of the three methods above, depending on the needs.

What do you think Trevally?

Due to the grouptypedef not being common, I also think any fix should be done campaign by campaign within the 3 to 4 version of said file - or just campaign by campaign.

Here all we need is a list of campaign dates
a list of problem nations within each timeframe

This would allow a simple switch nation to British (largest roster) etc

Hi John,

talking about the SpawnProbability setting of each Escort/ConvoyUnit definition, do you happen to know if it is applied to the unit as a whole, or rather individually to each ship set in the Unit?

Hi Gabriel

It was so long ago I can't remember and no longer had SH5 installed.
I am due to upgrade mt broadband to superfast 40mbs in 2 weeks and will reinstall then

From looking at the files I think the when 2 units have a 50% spawn chance - it is either both or none on the toss of a coin

For the 10th time, rating points are very important unless you want to reach the end of the war with type VIIA...

it is important Vecko that users do get their upgraded boats. OHII was based on this happening and yes I agree - we should do all we can to help/ensure this will happen.
I did spend many weeks trying to force boat upgrades without and luck.

You shouldn't. Who are you angry with? With people like Trevally, me... and you, who used a lot of hours of their free time for making this game better? Who else is to be considered "liable" for this and other shortcomings and unwanted features we might find in our mods? We should rather be grateful to Trevally for his little jewel, and be ready facing any possible inaccuracy, if Trevally accepts the changes.

there are times I am angry at myself